(0:03) Welcome to the Supply Chain Planning Podcast, where we speak to supply chain professionals (0:07) about their experience in planning. (0:10) I'm Ben, co-founder of Horizon, and Wim is our co-host. (0:13) Hi everyone, I'm Wim, I'm Managing Director of Lanark. 

(0:16) Today we have the pleasure to speak with Frank Binder, who has been managing global supply (0:21) chains in major pharmaceutical companies like Novartis, Celgene, and currently Santen. (0:27) Thank you for taking the time, Frank, and welcome to the podcast. (0:31) Thank you, Ben. 

(0:31) Frank, your background is in physical chemistry, in which you completed a PhD, but then you (0:37) somehow ended up in supply chain. (0:39) Could you share how that happened? (0:41) Yeah, that was a little journey. (0:43) Basically, I enjoyed my work at the university a lot, I enjoyed doing research, fundamental (0:50) research in a lab, but also I realized during the PhD, okay, this is not going to be what (0:56) I want to do for the next 30 years or so. 

(0:59) I had a strong affinity to manufacturing, I really liked the environment of manufacturing, (1:05) so after getting my PhD, I focused on getting into chemical manufacturing, which then I (1:12) achieved with Roche. (1:14) So I spent some time as a production chemist, making API, active ingredients, by the tons, (1:21) reworking on the shop floor with the manufacturing team, enjoyed that a lot. (1:24) But then after some time, I realized I also wanted to have a broader view, that I wanted (1:29) to see where what I'm doing, how does it fit together, basically with the supply chain. 

(1:34) And then I had the opportunity of joining a consultancy, Accenture, where I was really (1:41) doing work on supply chain projects, mostly in the pharmaceutical industry, and that was (1:45) extremely interesting, I think it taught me a lot. (1:49) And after a couple of years, I then thought, well, the life of a consultant is super interesting, (1:55) but for family reasons, I also wanted to get a bit more stability. (1:58) So I went back into the industry, and to Novartis, and the then head of global supply chain management, (2:05) Kurt Reber, gave me the opportunity of entering in an operational management role. 

(2:10) And I have been in supply chain in one or the other form ever since then, it has been an (2:16) extremely interesting journey. (2:17) Interesting to hear, as we're talking about pharmaceuticals, having worked in pharmaceuticals (2:22) myself on the distribution sites, and linked to production, GDP, GMP, are all concepts (2:29) that people are probably aware about, but are there any specifics to pharmaceuticals (2:33) in planning? (2:34) Yes, I mean, since our industry is regulated, and this regulation affects the supply chain (2:39) very much, basically where a product is manufactured, and how it is manufactured, and what ingredients (2:46) are used, this is all registered with the relevant authorities. (2:51) So we must make sure in our planning that we actually plan the right SKUs. 

(2:57) So we have to be sure which SKUs are we allowed to bring on the market in Malaysia or in France. (3:04) It could be that they're made at the same manufacturing site, but maybe according to (3:08) different recipes, we have to be 100% sure that we get it right. (3:13) And our products are also localized in the sense that the whole patient information, (3:18) the leaflet and the text on the box, is also approved by authorities. 

(3:23) It is extremely important that we have a full control of what we plan and what we deliver (3:28) where. (3:29) And when we want to make changes to the supply chain, we have to factor that in. (3:34) These changes have to be approved. 

(3:36) Many of them have to be approved before they become effective. (3:39) Some can be made effective and then approved later. (3:43) But we always have to be in full control and also plan the transition accordingly. 

(3:48) It just adds a dimension of complexity to our planning. (3:52) On one hand, very granular setup, if I can call it that way. (3:55) On the other hand, difficult changeovers. 

(4:00) On that granularity, does that practically mean that demand planning becomes very important (4:05) and the accuracy becomes very important because you don't have the benefit of aggregation? (4:09) Typically, if you have another business which is regulated and you have multiple countries, (4:15) you might be off by country. (4:16) But if you aggregate it, your accuracy typically improves. (4:19) Is that a benefit you lose in the pharma world or is that a wrong conclusion? (4:24) In many situations, you're right. 

(4:26) So we really have to consider the planning from making the actual semi-finished goods (4:31) to the finished goods specific to one SKU. (4:34) We do not have aggregation in many cases, but if we plan for it correctly, (4:40) we can set up aggregation situations. (4:42) So we could indeed produce some semi-finished goods that are completely generic or non-localized. 

(4:49) And then in a second step, do the whole packaging and printing and labeling. (4:54) But it has to be really set up as such. (4:57) So we can have aggregation, but we have to really set that up correctly. 

(5:02) You cannot plan or demand plan in isolation and just look at numbers. (5:06) You need to know how your whole supply chain actually looks like (5:09) and how the product production process even looks like. (5:12) Exactly. 

(5:12) And we also need to know which are the products where we have a second source (5:16) and we have to plan accordingly. (5:18) It is really important that we never have any mix up in between our products (5:22) and we do not have the flexibility to simply substitute. (5:25) In that case, how important is the collaboration with a specific country or a specific market? (5:30) Is there specific information that maybe salespeople or other departments (5:34) have that also enables you to optimize that process? (5:38) It is crucial to collaborate with the commercial teams. 

(5:42) We have set up integrated business planning processes (5:45) where we really have a very close collaboration with the commercial team. (5:49) We have discussions on the demand plan where we really sit together (5:53) and understand each other's assumptions. (5:55) This is very important. 

(5:56) When we fully understand the demand plan and where are the upsides and so on, (6:02) then we go about the supply plan, (6:04) which then needs to reflect the regulatory setup that I mentioned. (6:08) I think it is essential that we have a structured collaboration with the commercial team (6:13) because this basically repeats every month. (6:16) And if we do it in a more informal way, it gets chaotic quite quickly. 

(6:20) Have you set up those kinds of processes from the beginning (6:23) at either of those companies for certain markets? (6:25) Or was it always already existing? (6:28) Yeah, at Novartis, of course, it was already existing. (6:31) Novartis is a very sophisticated and well-established company (6:35) with a lot of processes already in place. (6:38) But then at Celgene, that was much more of a startup situation, (6:41) rapid growth situation where we had to put in the necessary processes. 

(6:46) And at Santin, we have worked a lot. (6:48) There was an S&OP process existing, (6:51) but we have re-transformed that into an integrated business planning (6:54) where we involve the financial team much more. (6:58) We have also a different level of collaboration with the commercial team. 

(7:02) Why do you see the role of finance in this process? (7:06) Or how have you seen it? (7:07) Yeah, one of the key things we're trying to achieve with our IBP (7:11) is to have the financials. (7:14) We don't want to talk just about volumes. (7:16) We want to talk about money as well, (7:18) because when we have to make trade-off decisions, (7:21) I think it is very difficult to talk about (7:24) replacing X million of bottles of product A (7:28) with Y million bottles of product B (7:31) if you don't understand what is actually the contribution of that product, (7:34) what is the gross margin, and so on. 

(7:36) So what we are doing is really, together with finance, (7:40) valuing the demand and the supply plan, (7:43) comparing that just in terms of value, (7:46) not only in terms of volume, but also in terms of value. (7:49) Do we have any gaps between what we want to achieve (7:53) from a financial benchmark or budget perspective (7:55) with what we can actually support? (7:58) We are trying to have money as the common language within the company. (8:02) What kind of complexities does that entail (8:04) beyond just including pricing of your products (8:08) and costs of all of the different parts of the product? (8:11) I think pricing is very complex (8:13) because you do not have just pricing, (8:15) you also have rebates. 

(8:17) We worked a lot with finance to get something (8:19) that we can use as an average sales price (8:22) that reflects quite closely what is actually going to happen. (8:27) But pricing is a very complex topic, (8:29) I think in many companies it is, (8:31) but for sure in pharmaceuticals, this is a complex topic. (8:35) Because in pharmaceuticals, (8:36) your pricing can vary a lot by market, right? (8:40) Yes, first that, it varies by market, (8:42) and then there are commercial schemes in place (8:45) in some instances where there might be rebates (8:48) to one group of customers and not to another one. 

(8:50) It all has to be reflected (8:52) and we have to come up with an average sales price (8:55) that is realistic and gives us a good picture (8:57) of what's actually happening without becoming too complex. (9:01) When we started talking about SNOP and IBP, (9:03) you mentioned finance and the commercial function, (9:05) which are the usual suspects in an SNOP process, (9:08) but I also heard you mention regulatory (9:10) and you mentioned it all the way at the beginning. (9:13) How do they play a role in the SNOP process (9:16) and how do you cater for, (9:18) they're dependent on this registration (9:19) in the different countries, (9:21) how do you cater for that in the process? (9:23) The regulatory team is extremely important (9:25) when it comes to changes. 

(9:26) It might be that we have to do some changes (9:29) in our registration (9:30) or it might be that we want to do some changes, (9:33) maybe we want to transfer some products (9:35) from one manufacturing site to another (9:37) and then we have to include regulatory (9:39) in the entire planning. (9:40) They are not a regular participant (9:42) in the integrated business planning, (9:44) but when we have major projects, (9:46) they come in and they give us updates (9:48) on where we stand and what we can do (9:50) and what we cannot do. (9:51) Do you have the same impact (9:52) for your distribution setup? (9:54) Does that play a role in the SNOP process (9:56) or is distribution, (9:58) how you handle that separate? (10:00) In the integrated business planning, (10:02) we look at the horizon (10:03) that is six months to 24 months out (10:06) or if we can even further out. 

(10:09) Distribution, (10:10) if there's any specific topics (10:12) on distribution, (10:13) many times this comes up (10:14) in the control towers, (10:16) which we have. (10:17) We have control towers to monitor (10:19) the short time horizon of execution (10:23) and the integrated business planning (10:25) is much more focusing on the long range. (10:28) When there are some distribution (10:29) specific topics or issues, (10:31) they typically hit more in the short term. 

(10:34) So that comes into the control tower. (10:36) Could you elaborate a bit (10:37) on that control tower? (10:38) Because it's a term that's often used (10:40) by different companies (10:41) and I've seen sometimes (10:42) it is actually indeed (10:43) something that's practically used. (10:45) Sometimes it's just a concept (10:46) that they throw around. 

(10:47) You use it for execution (10:48) and alerting mechanisms then mostly. (10:51) Yeah, it's based on reports. (10:52) We look at the next three months typically. 

(10:55) Where do we have risks (10:56) of inventory shortages (10:58) or even out of stocks? (10:59) Then we focus on those. (11:01) What our production, (11:02) planned production (11:03) that can be accelerated and so on. (11:05) So this is really driven a lot by data (11:07) that we have out of our systems. 

(11:09) And also we look at data (11:11) from our forwarders (11:12) where appropriate (11:14) to see what can be accelerated. (11:16) This is a topic (11:17) where it's still work in progress (11:18) to have a really efficient (11:19) kind of cockpit that we can use (11:22) with the minimum amount (11:23) of generating reports and so on. (11:26) But it's very important. 

(11:28) That cockpit, is it a separate system (11:30) package that you bought (11:31) specifically for that? (11:32) Or is it a set of smart (11:34) Power BI kind of reports? (11:36) Exactly. (11:37) We use Power BI in many instances (11:39) to generate such reports. (11:40) Yes, absolutely. 

(11:42) How has your experience (11:42) been with other systems? (11:44) Probably also there were (11:45) already systems in place (11:46) at the companies (11:48) where you're responsible (11:49) for supply chain. (11:50) Have you also implemented (11:51) the system from scratch (11:52) or any key learnings (11:54) that you might have there? (11:55) Yeah, at Celgene (11:56) we implemented Oracle. (11:58) But I think the project (11:59) where I learned most (12:00) was at Novartis (12:01) where Novartis embarked (12:03) into a global SAP (12:05) rollout program that was R3, (12:08) version R3 back then, (12:10) so quite some years ago. 

(12:11) But that was a massive program (12:13) where I was involved (12:15) on the business side (12:16) in the first rollout. (12:17) We rolled it out basically (12:18) to the central hub in Switzerland. (12:21) I got involved with business (12:23) continuity measures there. 

(12:25) And then later when I was (12:26) in France for Novartis, (12:28) I was then participant (12:29) again on the business side (12:30) in the rollout of the global (12:32) template into France. (12:34) That was a multi-year program (12:36) where there was in total (12:38) maybe two dozen different rollouts, (12:40) but extremely strongly organized (12:42) and where you could really learn (12:44) a lot about project (12:45) management as well. (12:47) That was full implementation, (12:49) but sequential step by step rollout. 

(12:51) We have talked with other people (12:53) also about trying out (12:55) certain solutions (12:56) or in specific markets (12:58) to see if it works or not. (12:59) Is that something that you also do (13:02) or can do in the pharma sector (13:04) or is it not possible (13:05) because of certain risks (13:06) that there might be? (13:08) I think the effort is enormous. (13:10) So you want to try something out (13:11) and you have to still go (13:12) through a complete design project. 

(13:14) You have to build, (13:15) you have to configure (13:16) and then build the system. (13:19) I haven't seen that done (13:20) in pharmaceuticals, honestly. (13:22) There's a selection of one system. 

(13:24) Then the system is configured (13:25) often in a global template (13:27) if you want to roll it out (13:28) across multiple countries (13:29) and then you just go one by one. (13:32) But to try something out, (13:33) I think it would be (13:35) a huge burden to do so. (13:37) You were talking that (13:38) you're on the business side. 

(13:39) Typically in these kind (13:40) of big implementations, (13:41) you have an army of external (13:43) vendors and suppliers (13:45) on the technical side. (13:46) You have, I don't know, (13:47) the Accenture or you know what, (13:48) that come and support (13:49) your SAP implementation. (13:52) What's your experience (13:53) on the business side? (13:54) Is it something you support (13:55) with the internal organization (13:57) or do you also see benefit there (13:59) in strengthening the team (14:00) with external people? (14:01) If such an implementation (14:02) is a big drain on resources, (14:05) one thing that we basically (14:07) always had to do (14:07) was to do backfilling. 

(14:09) So typically you need to put (14:11) some good people (14:12) from your organization (14:13) into the project (14:15) from the business side. (14:16) We have always done that (14:18) because it's really worthwhile (14:19) to have some really good people (14:21) building the system, (14:22) the efficiency gain (14:24) that's paid back multiple times (14:25) when in an operation. (14:27) But what we often do is then (14:28) what we typically do (14:29) is backfill these roles (14:30) in the standing organization (14:32) because we just cannot afford (14:34) to not do it. 

(14:36) In some instances, (14:37) we have consultants advising us (14:39) on some elements of designing. (14:42) I mean, they are typically (14:43) the consultants that have (14:44) a good understanding (14:45) of the technical side, (14:46) but they also have (14:47) a good understanding (14:48) on the business processes. (14:49) And typically in an ERP project, (14:52) you need these guys. 

(14:53) The bridging between the two, yeah. (14:55) Exactly. (14:56) They participate (14:57) in the definition of processes (14:58) in building how the system (15:00) should look like. 

(15:01) So we have consultants (15:02) not only on the pure IT side, (15:05) but also consultants (15:06) who are able to understand (15:08) and translate business requirements. (15:11) And beyond technical people (15:13) from the IT side, (15:14) business people talking data science. (15:17) Is that a capability (15:18) that you're seeing (15:19) being developed internally (15:20) at some of the companies (15:21) you work for? (15:22) Yeah. 

(15:23) In an ERP project, (15:24) you also have consultants (15:25) who are working on the data aspect. (15:27) But as an organization, (15:29) you need to build up (15:30) data management capabilities (15:32) and then data science, (15:33) data analytics. (15:34) These are capabilities (15:36) that are as fundamental (15:38) as planning capabilities (15:39) or logistics capabilities. 

(15:41) You have to have enough in-house, (15:44) definitely. (15:44) And I think that's a really hot area. (15:46) In my view, (15:47) you cannot implement advanced systems (15:49) without having some really (15:51) advanced data management in place. 

(15:53) Is that something you need to do (15:54) a lot of convincing still about? (15:57) Or do you have the impression (15:58) that the people that (15:59) control the budgets (16:00) already understand that? (16:02) Or is it still a fight (16:03) to get that supported? (16:05) It is not easy to explain (16:07) because data management (16:08) is quite abstract. (16:10) In some instances, (16:11) it can even be quite boring (16:13) to explain what it is. (16:15) But the value is enormous. 

(16:16) I think it's one of our tasks (16:18) to convince those (16:19) who hold the pearls (16:20) that this is worthwhile (16:22) and try to build business cases. (16:24) I'm happy sometimes (16:25) I have been successful (16:26) in doing that. (16:27) And sometimes I had to go back (16:29) to the drawing board (16:30) and improve my business case. 

(16:32) But it is essential (16:34) that we convince the budget holders (16:37) of the value of data management. (16:40) What are the arguments (16:41) that have worked already? (16:42) If you want to share, of course. (16:43) I think generally speaking, (16:45) you have to show (16:45) that this is kind of a prerequisite. 

(16:48) If we do not have a good enough (16:50) data management in-house, (16:51) then the data quality (16:53) will degrade quickly (16:54) to a point where you cannot (16:55) operate an ERP system anymore (16:57) or not gainfully, I would say. (16:59) And actually, the requirements (17:00) of data quality is quite high (17:02) for an ERP system. (17:04) If you have a certain degree (17:05) of wrong data, (17:07) the output will be quite unusual. 

(17:09) So I think it's always about (17:10) what happens if we don't do it. (17:13) What else could we do (17:14) if we have a good data management? (17:16) What new fields will it open up? (17:17) And what will be the benefits (17:19) of venturing into those? (17:20) What kind of analysis could we do (17:21) that would benefit (17:23) the commercial team? (17:24) I think that is always (17:25) a selling argument. (17:26) If you can provide data, (17:28) that then will enable (17:30) the commercial team (17:31) to do a better job. 

(17:33) Playing on both sides, (17:34) one saying, (17:34) if you don't do it, (17:35) this is what's going to happen. (17:36) This is what is going to cost us. (17:38) But if you do it, (17:39) this is what is going to enable (17:40) and play on the commercial side. 

(17:42) Yeah, smart. (17:43) I would do it on both sides (17:44) because it makes the case stronger. (17:46) And it's actually true. 

(17:47) You have these both sides in reality. (17:49) You mentioned showing the benefits (17:51) to sales also. (17:53) What have you seen (17:54) as the role of supply chain (17:56) within pharmaceutical companies? (17:58) I mean, all of these departments (17:59) have their own kind of role. 

(18:01) And in many organizations, (18:02) sales is leading (18:03) or also the loudest voice in some cases. (18:06) How do you compare that (18:07) with other industries? (18:08) Do you see a difference (18:08) in the role of supply chain (18:10) or how they are looked at (18:11) from different departments? (18:12) I have been in other healthcare settings, (18:14) but I haven't been like in a car industry (18:16) or something like that. (18:17) So I can't really compare (18:18) with other industries. 

(18:20) I can compare across companies. (18:22) And there are companies (18:23) where basically the commercial team says, (18:25) hey, I want this and this. (18:27) And supply chain, (18:28) I am your internal customer, (18:30) so you have to do it. 

(18:31) And that is normally not fruitful (18:33) because as supply chain professionals, (18:36) we have actually something (18:37) really unique to contribute. (18:39) We have an understanding (18:41) of the operational effort (18:43) and the cost to do some specific things. (18:45) And we can bring that in (18:47) and we can challenge some markets (18:50) where there is a lot of effort (18:52) that we have to spend (18:53) and very little sales (18:54) and even less profit. 

(18:56) That's something we can do. (18:58) Or we can work together (18:59) with the commercial team (19:00) in terms of doing cost to serve analysis. (19:03) And I think that is really valuable. 

(19:05) And the commercial team (19:06) also sees the value of doing that (19:08) because it can really differ (19:10) quite strongly. (19:11) So teaming up with finance (19:13) and with commercial (19:14) to doing these kind of analysis, (19:16) to looking at marginal markets, (19:18) products in the long tail, (19:21) cost to serve analysis, (19:22) I think that's where supply chain (19:23) has some unique insights (19:26) that we can really bring to the table. (19:27) But it doesn't work (19:28) if we just wait for others (19:29) to give us orders. 

(19:30) I want this, I want that. (19:31) We have to be proactive and say, (19:33) hey, we have noticed (19:34) you are doing something (19:35) that is maybe not really (19:36) adding a lot of value to the company. (19:39) Do you take that further (19:40) instead of just cost to serve? (19:42) Have you experienced (19:43) with active network design projects? (19:46) Yes, of course, (19:47) for a supply chain professional, (19:49) it is a rare (19:49) and I think very nice opportunity (19:51) to do network design, (19:52) but I have been luckily (19:54) in situations (19:55) where we have done network designs. 

(19:57) The one I'm most proud of (19:58) was at Celgene,  

(20:00) where we 

redesigned our European distribution network. 

(20:04) We had basically in every country, 

(20:07) we had one logistics service provider 

(20:09) that was doing the, as an outsourcing partner 

(20:12) in market distribution for us 

(20:14) and together with finance and with the commercial team 

(20:17) and QA, we came up with a radically simplified model 

(20:20) with one single location in Europe 

(20:24) with one multilingual customer service team. 

(20:28) And we set that up to deliver on a next day basis 

(20:31) to hospitals across Europe. 

(20:33) So out of Germany, delivering to hospitals in UK, 

(20:37) in France, in Italy and so on, 

(20:39) on a next day delivery basis mostly. 

(20:42) And this was a huge success in terms of savings, 

(20:45) in terms of also of the results. 

(20:47) I think there were hospitals gave a very good feedback 

(20:50) actually to that as well. 

(20:51) And we were able to do that with a much optimized team 

(20:54) and to cost, we didn't have to cost 

(20:56) for all these warehouses anymore. 

(20:59) I can tell it was successful 

(21:00) because we put it in place in Celgene 

(21:03) and then we run that for a couple of years. 

(21:05) Then Bristol Myers acquired Celgene 

(21:08) and instead of just moving everything 

(21:10) to their standard Bristol Myers distribution setup, 

(21:13) they decided to keep it and even to expand it. 

(21:16) So it's still what we did more than 10 years ago 

(21:19) is still being used by the company that acquired Celgene. 

(21:22) So that makes me happy every time I think about it. 

(21:26) That's indeed a good sign if they keep the setup. 

(21:28) We talked in some of the previous podcasts 

(21:31) with people that had experience 

(21:32) with very varying level of maturity 

(21:35) or advancement in the supply chain processes. 

(21:38) Do you have something similar in the pharma world 

(21:40) or is this much more centrally pushed? 

(21:42) Everybody follows the same process. 

(21:44) Is that radically different than pharma 

(21:46) or how should we see that? 

(21:48) You can find about everything. 

(21:50) You can have decentralized processes. 

(21:54) You can have maybe one team that's very mature 

(21:56) and in another region there's a team 

(21:58) that is doing quite basic things. 

(22:01) It is really different. 

(22:03) And what I generally try to do is to identify 

(22:06) what are the processes that we really need to centralize 

(22:10) and what are the processes where there is so much, 

(22:13) I would say, regional specific needs 

(22:16) that we are better off having them run regionally. 

(22:19) But I think the key processes really have to be standardized 

(22:23) across the different regions. 

(22:25) And that then also means that you have to put in place 

(22:28) some centralized accountability. 

(22:31) Otherwise you can centralize a process 

(22:33) and the very next day it starts to diverge again. 

(22:37) What does that practically mean in a planning environment 

(22:39) or the specific parts, I don't know, 

(22:42) demand planning versus supply planning versus scheduling? 

(22:44) How do you see that in different parts of planning? 

(22:47) What is important is that we do the planning processes 

(22:51) in a really standardized way. 

(22:53) So the demand planning process with the different markets, 

(22:57) we have to use the same approach, the same granularity, 

(23:00) the same frequency of data collection, 

(23:03) the same frequency of discussion of the demand plan 

(23:07) across all regions because otherwise we are just not able 

(23:10) to maintain a regular global process 

(23:13) that has because it already has to be synchronized 

(23:16) by a certain working day in the months. 

(23:17) We have to have had a couple of meetings already. 

(23:21) So that has to be synchronized 

(23:22) and that goes only via standardization. 

(23:24) We also want to have the same kind of data in the system. 

(23:28) So if I have a demand from Malaysia, 

(23:30) I need to be sure that is equivalent 

(23:33) to a demand for France or so on. 

(23:36) And then the planning processes, the supply planning 

(23:39) that also has to be really standardized. 

(23:41) So we're using the same system, Kinaxis to be sure, 

(23:44) but we also have to have the same methodology. 

(23:47) Otherwise, when planners from different regions 

(23:50) have to compare their books 

(23:51) because one region is supplying to the other region, 

(23:55) if we do not have the planning processes standardized, 

(23:58) it will be near impossible 

(23:59) to even have a meaningful conversation. 

(24:02) These kinds of things have to be totally centralized 

(24:05) and also driven according to a central playbook. 

(24:08) But then things like local scheduling 

(24:10) of a production process in a plant, 

(24:13) that is then less centrally governed. 

(24:16) Yeah, anyway, the plant receives 

(24:18) then all the different demands 

(24:19) and they have to work it off in a way 

(24:22) that is cost optimal for the company, of course. 

(24:25) But what is certainly then regionally driven 

(24:28) is topics about distribution. 

(24:31) There is no point in standardizing 

(24:33) and making sure that the distribution in Malaysia 

(24:35) works the same way as the distribution in France. 

(24:38) There are certainly quite big differences 

(24:40) in who is the customer base, 

(24:42) do we have multiple warehouses, 

(24:45) satellite warehouses or not? 

(24:46) This has to be handled regionally 

(24:48) or even market by market 

(24:50) when it comes to distribution for sure. 

(24:52) And that playbook that you mentioned earlier, 

(24:55) does that include on the one hand 

(24:57) the best practices and the methodology for now? 

(25:00) And also on the other hand, 

(25:02) if a region is still less mature, 

(25:05) does the playbook then have steps up? 

(25:07) Because if they are not using any system yet, for instance, 

(25:10) or it still has to be implemented, 

(25:12) their data quality might not be as good. 

(25:14) Is the whole roadmap towards the process 

(25:17) that you'd like to see? 

(25:18) We have a roadmap for development, yes. 

(25:21) But when we run our IBP process, 

(25:23) we have defined a minimum that we apply throughout 

(25:26) and this is really standardized. 

(25:29) It doesn't matter if a region has to still use Excel sheets 

(25:32) or if they get their data out of an ERP system. 

(25:36) In the end, the templates are the same. 

(25:38) That's really important. 

(25:39) Okay, they have to come up with certain numbers, 

(25:42) certain indicators for the IBP process. 

(25:44) Okay, exactly. 

(25:46) The word people was mentioned a couple of times and roles. 

(25:48) So perhaps a nice bridge to a topic we like to touch upon 

(25:52) in these podcasts as well. 

(25:53) Starting at the very beginning with people, 

(25:55) what are your experiences in the recruitment world 

(25:58) and finding the right people for a planning job? 

(26:01) Because we had that discussion in the last podcast 

(26:04) where a planner is actually a rare combination 

(26:06) of being both very number driven, 

(26:09) but also being able to work with people. 

(26:11) What's your experience in finding the right people 

(26:14) to staff a planning team? 

(26:16) Yeah, planners are indeed quite unique 

(26:18) because they have to have a skillset 

(26:20) that is really analytical. 

(26:22) They have to be really comfortable with numbers. 

(26:25) They have to be really comfortable with systems. 

(26:27) They have to be able to understand the calculations, 

(26:30) but then also be able to trust the system. 

(26:33) So they need a lot of technology, a savvy, I would say. 

(26:37) They also have to have good communication skills 

(26:41) and good influencing skills because very often 

(26:44) they are in a kind of a negotiation situation. 

(26:46) They have to maybe to talk to their counterpart 

(26:49) who does demand planning for a certain market 

(26:51) and trying to align what is the optimal plan. 

(26:54) There is a lot of communication skills needed 

(26:56) and a bit of finesse and a bit of ability 

(26:59) to influence colleagues without having any reporting line 

(27:03) or something that is from a leadership perspective. 

(27:08) Planners have to have some leadership. 

(27:10) And then a planner also needs to be open to change 

(27:13) when we implement improved processes 

(27:15) or when we implement a new planning system. 

(27:18) We really have to have the planners adopt it. 

(27:22) We don't have that many planners. 

(27:24) And if there are some planners who stubbornly stick 

(27:26) with the old system that brings any implementation 

(27:30) into a difficult situation, 

(27:32) so they have to have the willingness to change. 

(27:34) And the planner needs to have a lot of resilience 

(27:37) because every day you can come to work 

(27:40) and open up the system. 

(27:42) And every day you will have different messages 

(27:44) and different things have happened. 

(27:46) So there needs to be a lot of resilience. 

(27:48) Quite unique skillset. 

(27:50) And then on the other hand, 

(27:51) there is not one highly specific career path 

(27:56) that leads you to being a planner. 

(27:58) You cannot say, oh, to become a planner, 

(27:59) you need to have first to do this kind of job 

(28:01) and then that kind of job and so on. 

(28:03) People come from different sides. 

(28:06) Some grow up from a product manufacturing scheduling role. 

(28:09) Others come from a commercial side 

(28:11) having done some demand planning. 

(28:14) There's multiple paths that lead to being a planner. 

(28:18) And then coupled with a really demanding profile 

(28:21) makes it, I think it's one of the most difficult 

(28:24) kinds of jobs to recruit for 

(28:25) because I believe that finding the right person 

(28:29) makes a big difference. 

(28:30) So between somebody who is just average 

(28:33) and somebody who's really good, 

(28:35) you have the multiple in terms of productivity 

(28:37) and also in terms of creativity and of improving processes. 

(28:42) It's worthwhile to spend some time in recruitment. 

(28:45) I think there's a big payoff if you do that. 

(28:48) Analytical, strong in communication, 

(28:51) leadership, flexible resilience, 

(28:53) but other, as you say, unique profile. 

(28:55) How do you go about in the recruiting interviews 

(28:57) and conversations to check for these things? 

(29:00) How do you know if it's going to be a fit? 

(29:03) Yeah, I think when we do interviews, 

(29:05) we have a couple of people interviewing everybody 

(29:07) from specific angles. 

(29:09) What I like to do is to have candidates 

(29:12) tell concrete stories. 

(29:14) Tell me about a situation where you were faced 

(29:16) with the potential out of stock of an essential product. 

(29:20) How did you manage it? 

(29:21) What did you achieve? 

(29:22) Things like that. 

(29:23) I think still having people tell real-life stories 

(29:27) of their experience is one way to get 

(29:30) not only what experience they have, 

(29:31) but also how they think, how they process things, 

(29:34) and how they communicate. 

(29:36) Are they able to give you a coherent and succinct story? 

(29:40) That's my way of interviewing. 

(29:42) Important is to have different people interviewing 

(29:44) who have different functional roles 

(29:46) and who can look from different angles at the candidate. 

(29:50) Beyond recruiting, 

(29:52) when it comes to developing or training people, 

(29:55) do you have a certain procedure for that or best practices? 

(29:59) Or maybe before answering that, how have you been trained? 

(30:02) Did you have certain mentors that trained you or guided you? 

(30:06) Yeah, I was lucky to have some really outstanding mentors 

(30:09) along the way. 

(30:11) People I really looked up to and said, 

(30:13) oh, they have some great things I really want to emulate. 

(30:15) People like Kurt Reber, 

(30:17) who led the supply chain of Novartis. 

(30:20) Then at Celgene, Michael Morrissey, 

(30:21) the head of technical operations. 

(30:23) I learned a lot from just working with these people 

(30:25) and that has been really important to me. 

(30:28) Did you then also, or do you still also do that 

(30:30) for other people, try to mentor them and guide them? 

(30:33) Yeah, I mean, I have been in companies 

(30:34) where there were formal mentorship programs 

(30:36) where I found it always very valuable 

(30:38) and enriching to participate. 

(30:40) But I think you can also do that in an informal way. 

(30:43) I hope people listen to me 

(30:45) and I try to share a bit of my experience 

(30:47) and give people some ideas and some hints 

(30:50) how they could approach some tasks. 

(30:53) I think it's one of the benefits in working together 

(30:56) in a team where there's different levels of experience. 

(30:59) It's really valuable to share what you have. 

(31:01) Yes, for sure. 

(31:03) Would you say that you have your own type of leadership 

(31:06) that you have developed? 

(31:08) Because you say you emulated certain characteristics 

(31:11) or best practices. 

(31:12) Could you describe it in some manner? 

(31:15) I think it's difficult because am I a good leader or not? 

(31:18) I reserve that judgment to those people 

(31:20) who have to endure my leadership. 

(31:22) But what I'm trying to do is in any case, 

(31:25) not be a micromanager. 

(31:26) I think being a micromanager is in a way ridiculous 

(31:29) and it's also dangerous for the organization. 

(31:33) So I try to empower people, 

(31:34) of course, giving them some guidance. 

(31:37) But in the end, it is about enabling people 

(31:40) to do things by themselves. 

(31:42) I think what is always valuable to develop is patience. 

(31:45) I'm sometimes challenged in the area of patience. 

(31:49) I try to work on that because you also have to give people 

(31:52) the time to express themselves, 

(31:55) to get their thoughts all aligned. 

(31:58) So you cannot rush things. 

(31:59) And if you're impatient 

(32:00) and you're trying to push something through, 

(32:02) that's normally not good. 

(32:04) Of course, in a crisis situation, I would still do that. 

(32:06) And that's quite okay. 

(32:08) But very often we actually have the time 

(32:10) to develop things a bit more thoroughly. 

(32:13) Recently, you made a post to us 

(32:14) about having one-to-one meetings. 

(32:17) There were some people now have a tendency to just say, 

(32:19) oh, we cancel them if there's nothing to discuss. 

(32:22) I know Wim also has some one-to-ones right after this. 

(32:24) I believe, Wim? 

(32:25) I just come from one. 

(32:27) I just come from one. 

(32:28) Right. 

(32:29) How do you see that regular amount of contact or intensity? 

(32:32) It's a distinction between empowerment and micromanaging. 

(32:36) Yeah, I think regular one-on-ones 

(32:40) have nothing to do with micromanagement or empowerment 

(32:42) because I don't use my one-on-ones to give people saying, 

(32:46) okay, you get up in the morning, 

(32:48) you put on your pants, you put on your shirt, 

(32:51) that's how you do it. 

(32:51) And that's not the kind of things I'm discussing. 

(32:54) It's really about an agenda that is quite open. 

(32:57) I expect my team members to come 

(32:59) with the key things they're working on, 

(33:01) which there might be things that are going really well. 

(33:04) So they just tell me, hey, this is going well. 

(33:06) I say, well, congratulations. 

(33:07) Or it could be topics where they say, 

(33:09) hey, there's something I'm not quite sure how to proceed 

(33:12) or I might need your support 

(33:14) if it doesn't improve or whatever. 

(33:16) The agenda is quite free. 

(33:18) In a one-on-one, both participants should be able 

(33:21) to bring up whatever they feel like. 

(33:23) And it has nothing to do with micromanagement. 

(33:25) It's about understanding how the other is doing, 

(33:29) what are the key activities. 

(33:31) It's also about understanding, 

(33:33) well, is the other stressed out 

(33:34) or severely overworked or whatever? 

(33:37) You need to just capture that. 

(33:40) I think these human aspects, 

(33:42) I think if that gets forgotten 

(33:44) and you just get a status report and you say, 

(33:46) oh yeah, everything is green. 

(33:47) So let's move on. 

(33:48) That's not enough. 

(33:49) That's not leadership as I imagine it. 

(33:52) There's a nice book for that. 

(33:53) I was recommended by a friend, 

(33:55) The Coaching Habit. 

(33:56) I don't know if you're familiar with it. 

(33:57) It talks about seven questions that you can always use 

(34:00) that can guide you through a one-to-one. 

(34:02) I think it's a good mindset. 

(34:04) The coaching mindset is a good one 

(34:06) in such a one-on-one situation. 

(34:09) It's not about telling people exactly what to do, 

(34:11) but rather to help them find out what are the key things 

(34:14) or what's the situation. 

(34:17) Perhaps as a closing question, 

(34:18) any advice from your end for both people 

(34:22) who think about going into supply chain 

(34:24) and specifically supply chain planning 

(34:26) or for people that are already active in there, 

(34:28) any advice from your end on skills to develop 

(34:31) or what to focus on? 

(34:33) I think in terms of skills, 

(34:35) it is always good to get some 

(34:37) industry-recognized certification like APICS. 

(34:41) CPIM, I think, is a fantastic qualification 

(34:43) for somebody who is active in planning. 

(34:45) It gives you a reference 

(34:47) and also it gives you something that is portable. 

(34:50) You can show your professional competence with. 

(34:53) So that's something I would be looking to acquire 

(34:56) as a planner. 

(34:57) Would you push that from a corporate level 

(34:59) and say, oh, my people need to do this 

(35:01) or you give it only to high potentials 

(35:04) or would you recommend individuals 

(35:06) to just do it on their own initiative 

(35:07) because it's not cheap to get these kinds of certifications? 

(35:11) We do have a program in our supply chain team 

(35:13) where people can sign up. 

(35:15) We recommend that people choose a certificate 

(35:18) that is in line with either what they're doing 

(35:20) or where they want to go. 

(35:21) So then it's a development plan discussion 

(35:24) and then we support that. 

(35:26) Besides the certification, 

(35:28) any other recommendations for people 

(35:30) on how they can prepare for a role in planning? 

(35:32) I think it's good to be literate in a little bit in finance 

(35:36) and also to be able to talk to the commercial team. 

(35:39) So you need to understand a bit 

(35:41) what are the products that you are planning. 

(35:43) That gives you more credibility 

(35:44) when you discuss with the commercial team. 

(35:46) You have to have an idea 

(35:48) which ones are the most profitable 

(35:49) that will help you when you're discussing 

(35:51) with finance colleagues. 

(35:53) Well, I think supply chain professionals 

(35:55) and especially planners have the chance 

(35:57) to really understand a bit beyond the narrow task. 

(36:02) If you develop an understanding 

(36:04) of what's going on end to end, 

(36:05) it's always helpful 

(36:06) and it also will help you if you don't want to evolve. 

(36:09) Any specific books you would recommend in that area? 

(36:12) Oh, there's one book I really like 

(36:14) and that's The Strategy-Driven Supply Chain 

(36:17) from Bram Desmet. 

(36:19) That is how can we link strategy, finance, 

(36:22) and supply chain. 

(36:23) The Triangle. 

(36:25) It's really fantastic. 

(36:26) It's extremely well-written 

(36:27) and it's a book that inspires me a lot. 

(36:30) There's also your LinkedIn profile, Frank, 

(36:32) where you sometimes post texts 

(36:35) or also videos regularly with sunglasses. 

(36:38) Can you maybe share what you talk about and why? 

(36:41) I find them often interesting 

(36:42) and also actually entertaining at the same time. 

(36:45) Thank you. 

(36:45) Yeah, when I started, 

(36:46) I wanted to talk mostly about supply chain topics, 

(36:49) but then I realized that I have been, since 20 years 

(36:52) or something, managing across cultures. 

(36:55) I thought, well, 

(36:55) there's also some really interesting aspects of that 

(36:58) because there's really good coaching advice 

(37:00) on cross-cultural management, 

(37:02) but I wanted to do it from a practitioner standpoint. 

(37:05) What are the things I have tried out 

(37:07) with my multicultural leadership team? 

(37:10) What has worked? 

(37:10) What has not worked? 

(37:12) Give a bit of advice on that. 

(37:14) Yeah, I think it's, 

(37:15) I just realized I have done over the years so many things 

(37:18) and gotten quite some experiences, 

(37:20) and I just wanted to share that. 

(37:22) And I found, for me, video is— 

(37:24) that is the medium that suits me best 

(37:26) instead of writing long texts or so on. 

(37:28) I found, well, doing a quick video is much more fun 

(37:31) and maybe more relatable. 

(37:33) And what's the idea behind the sunglasses? 

(37:36) Oh, initially it helped me to basically— 

(37:39) there's the screen. 

(37:40) When you take a video, you look into the lens, 

(37:42) but then there's also the screen where you see yourself. 

(37:44) And at the beginning of a video, 

(37:46) it's quite useful to see, do you look right? 

(37:49) Is the framing right? 

(37:50) Is the illumination right? 

(37:51) And then the sunglasses helped me— 

(37:53) I could look at the screen without it being visible. 

(37:57) Sometime people told me, 

(37:59) hey, we like your sunglasses. 

(38:00) We want you to have your sunglasses on 

(38:02) when you start your video. 

(38:03) It's extremely recognizable. 

(38:05) Couldn't get out of it anymore. 

(38:06) It's amazing. 

(38:08) Yes, now people even comment in the reactions. 

(38:12) They comment about the content 

(38:13) and then also something about the sunglasses. 

(38:15) I see. 

(38:15) I just hope that they will not say, 

(38:17) oh, we would like to have a new model of sunglasses. 

(38:20) And I would not go. 

(38:22) Yeah, that would be too much of a sidetrack 

(38:24) from the content indeed also. 

(38:27) Okay. 

(38:27) Is it okay for you if we share your LinkedIn profile 

(38:29) also with people so they can have a look themselves? 

(38:31) Yeah, absolutely. 

(38:32) Absolutely. 

(38:33) Thanks a lot, Frank, for all of the insights 

(38:35) and for sharing your experiences. 

(38:36) It was very interesting. 

(38:38) I'm sure the audience will benefit a lot from it. 

(38:40) Thank you. 

(38:41) And goodbye to the audience. 

(38:43) Thank you very much.