(0:03) Welcome to the Supply Chain Planning Podcast, where we speak to supply chain professionals (0:07) about their experience in planning. (0:09) I'm Ben, co-founder of Horizon, and Wim is our co-host. (0:13) Hi everyone, I'm Wim, I'm Managing Director of Lanark. 

(0:16) And our guest for today is Rodrigo Lavrador, who's been in different supply chain planning (0:20) roles for more than 20 years. (0:22) Welcome Rodrigo. (0:23) Thank you, thank you for having me. 

(0:26) You've worked for several well-known companies like Bosch, Daikin. (0:30) How did you roll into supply chain and then transition from one company to the next? (0:34) Interesting story. (0:36) I started at Bosch while I was still in my second year at university. 

(0:40) I went through an internship and selection process and got in. (0:44) So I was looking for a job, not sure about what to do. (0:48) And they had this rather unique requirement for Brazil, especially in 2003. 

(0:53) They were looking for a young candidate with some international experience. (0:58) And it happened that I was just returned from the US, where I had lived for nearly six months. (1:05) And I got a position and I started in supply chain back in 2003, having no idea about what (1:12) supply chain was or even logistics. 

(1:14) I had this expatriation in Bosch, South Africa for three years. (1:18) And when I turned back to Bosch Brazil, I began receiving multiple offers from various companies. (1:25) Although I wasn't planning to leave Bosch, the offer from Avon was kind of irresistible. 

(1:31) Beyond the salary, I was given the opportunity to, for the first time, to lead a team. (1:36) I worked for Bosch for 80 years, both in Brazil and South Africa, but I didn't have the opportunity (1:41) to have direct reports. (1:43) And also the opportunity to experiment supply chain in a completely different environment. 

(1:50) It was direct sales of cosmetics. (1:53) So I was shifting from automotive market to cosmetics. (1:58) And that for me was a big thing for me, get to experience the supply chain in a different (2:03) industry, in a different market. 

(2:06) I worked for Avon almost three years. (2:08) I was quite happy and successful there. (2:11) And while Bosch provided me with the foundational principles and process backbone of supply (2:18) chain, Avon allowed me to develop my leadership skills. 

(2:22) What roles did you do at Bosch? (2:24) Yeah, Bosch was a very comprehensive learning period for me because I had the opportunity (2:30) to be in every single chair in supply chain. (2:33) So I started with customer service and then demand planning, then supply planning and (2:40) international logistics. (2:42) At a certain point, I was doing a little bit of everything. 

(2:45) It was like a learning period for me in Brazil. (2:48) And then when I moved to South Africa, I went there as a project, a logistic project coordinator. (2:54) So I was running some projects in continuous improvement, production leveling on the shop (3:01) floor, also in demand planning, forecasting, improving forecasting, working inventory. 

(3:07) So every single project in supply chain, I was involved. (3:11) What was the opportunity at Avon that you got the people management, but what was the (3:14) content of the role? (3:16) Yes, I had the supply planning department, MRP, MPS, international logistics and production (3:23) planning, everything apart distribution. (3:26) So the entire supply chain apart distribution for the entire fragrance business. 

(3:31) And there I was leading eight people for the first time in an industry that's completely (3:36) different. I mean, the dynamics of direct sales in supply chain is something that anyone (3:42) who can experience it, it would be amazing in school. (3:46) Putting these two experiences together led me to Genoma, where I had the opportunity (3:53) to build a supply chain department, supply chain slash procurement department, almost (3:58) from ground up. 

(4:00) The interesting part here is looking back, I can see how each experience complemented (4:04) the one before. (4:05) And then after that, what kind of new challenge or industry did you go to? (4:10) Yeah, Genoma was between two and three years. (4:12) And the reason I left Genoma was basically because since I returned from South Africa, (4:18) I had this personal desire of having a new international experience. 

(4:24) And I knew that Genoma wouldn't provide it because it's part of their DNA. (4:28) So there was not much movement of people internationally. (4:32) And that's how I ended up in Givaldon. 

(4:35) Givaldon has this, let's say, they are used to use different professionals from different (4:42) countries and promote this exchange among professionals across regions and countries. (4:48) And I knew that because Givaldon was a former supplier to Avon. (4:53) But you first did have to prove yourself in Brazil. 

(4:56) Exactly. Yes. (4:58) Interesting. 

(4:59) And that was kind of a challenge my former operations director gave to me, because just (5:04) before I joined Givaldon, they had four supply chain managers in like five or six years. (5:11) So it was a very hot chair. (5:13) So the challenge was quite big, let's say, but it worked out. 

(5:19) In three and a half years, I managed to revamp the supply chain locally in Brazil. (5:25) The right people with the right process, a little bit of system involved as well. (5:30) What happened was exactly that. 

(5:32) So I started gaining visibility in the region. (5:35) So Brazil became kind of a role model to Mexico, Colombia, Argentina. (5:40) And we started to be not only me, but the entire supply chain team in Brazil started (5:45) to gain more visibility in the region and later with the global supply chain Switzerland. 

(5:51) And that was exactly what gave me the opportunity to be transferred to Dubai, to the Middle (5:57) East and Africa region. (5:58) Not that the challenges were the same, but they were very similar in Latin America and (6:04) here in Middle East and Africa. (6:07) Summing up with my experience in South Africa, in Africa with Bosch and my performance in (6:12) Brazil with Givaldon, I got this opportunity to be relocated to Dubai and become responsible (6:18) for African Middle East for Givaldon. 

(6:20) There it was kind of replicating the success that you then had before. (6:24) Was that the goal? (6:26) Yeah, no, the projects are definitely different. (6:29) They trust me that I could do something similar here in Middle East and Africa, especially (6:34) because all this supply chain business here in this sub region was controlled by Europe. 

(6:40) So there was nobody in the region for the region. (6:44) And this is a global slogan in Givaldon, where they are always trying to have not only the (6:52) people, but also suppliers and make the supply chain in the region for the region to reduce (6:58) complexity and improve reaction time and agility. (7:03) So how long did you stay with Givaldon then? (7:05) In total, six years, a little bit more, almost three and a half years in Brazil and three (7:10) years here in African Middle East. 

(7:13) That brought you to a new challenge. (7:15) Yes, and here in Dubai, Covid had a big impact also in my relocation. (7:22) So I moved to Dubai in 2020, September. 

(7:26) I was supposed to move in March, but March was a horrible period to travel. (7:32) There were travel bans everywhere. (7:34) So I was working for Middle East and Africa, but from Brazil. 

(7:37) When I finally managed to come to Dubai, situation was still bad and it remained bad for quite (7:44) some time, which also impacted in the projects and the scope and everything I was supposed (7:49) to do in Dubai. (7:51) And that's something everybody has to be prepared for. (7:54) Like, OK, you can have several plans, doesn't matter how good are your plans. 

(7:59) But I mean, things change, especially supply chain. (8:02) And I was in the middle of this change here during the Covid. (8:06) So it was a great experience. 

(8:08) But the resources and everything had to be cut down and I didn't have all the resources (8:13) and the funds and the time to do all the projects I was supposed to do here in Dubai. (8:17) And that led me to take a look into the market. (8:20) And I got this offer from Daikin. 

(8:22) It's a better position and better everything, actually. (8:26) And again, a completely different industry. (8:28) So if you recall, I worked for a German company and then American company and then to a (8:35) Mexican company and then a Swiss company and then Daikin, a Japanese company. 

(8:40) So five nationalities, five different industries. (8:43) And many different countries as well. (8:45) Yes, exactly. 

(8:46) And different countries, different nationalities and different industries. (8:49) So for me, it's always a learning. (8:51) It's a learning process. 

(8:52) Like every day I'm learning all these changes. (8:55) And this move has taught me a lot, especially how supply chain can be very, very different (9:01) from company to company and from industry to industry. (9:05) You also mentioned that you are looking for that international experience and taking on (9:10) new challenges. 

(9:11) And how did you deal with that from a leadership perspective with those different cultures? (9:15) Did you have to adapt yourself to different people? (9:18) Yeah. (9:19) Yeah. (9:19) This is something you learn during the journey. 

(9:23) And I have gathered, I mean, my experience working and living in all these different (9:27) countries to develop a leadership methodology based on three core pillars. (9:31) First one is a very basic one. (9:34) So it's transparent communication in my team. 

(9:37) Every team member fully understands their role, how they contribute to the overall results (9:43) and what's expected from them. (9:46) This is something that will work in any culture. (9:48) People want to understand they need transparency. 

(9:52) It generates confidence, engagement, and they feel part of the team. (9:56) That works across cultures. (9:58) The second point, this is a little bit more unique. 

(10:02) This is I've never seen anyone doing the same. (10:04) So it's the continuous improvement focus. (10:07) In my team, every team member is encouraged to come up with one or two goals for the year. 

(10:13) This kind of open invitation allows them to share their own insights on areas for improvements (10:20) and showcase their potential and ability to drive change. (10:24) Especially, for example, when I moved from Givaldante to Daikin. (10:29) The team at Daikin, they've been there for 16 years, most of the people there. 

(10:34) So of course, they know much more about this marketing, this industry than me. (10:39) But I have to lead them. (10:41) So how can I do that without their help? (10:44) By inviting them to create their own objectives. 

(10:46) Of course, we have the objectives from the company, top down or even bottom up. (10:50) But one or two will always be built by them. (10:54) And finally, the third pillar, it's the end of all that. 

(10:58) It's the evaluation process. (11:00) A very clear evaluation process throughout the fiscal year. (11:04) It's transparent from the start to the end, ensuring no surprise when the cycle finishes. 

(11:10) How do you manage attendance? (11:11) With one-to-ones regularly or? (11:13) Yeah, most of the people, most of the employees, not only supply chain, any company, (11:18) they do not know the HR policies and how they are measured or how the company chooses (11:25) who's going to be promoted or who's going to have their contract terminated. (11:30) It's always a surprise. (11:31) Most of the time, it's always a surprise. 

(11:34) And that's exactly what I try to avoid. (11:36) I explain the nine box grid. (11:38) I explain each one of the box. 

(11:40) The only thing I cannot share is where they are located in those box. (11:45) And what is that? It's a nine box grid or how do you call it? (11:47) Nine box grid. (11:49) It's a grid with nine box in it. 

(11:51) And you have the vertical, the performance, and then the horizontal, the potential. (11:57) The performance is very straightforward. (11:59) So you have the objective. 

(12:01) Is it 100%? Is it 50%? Is it 150%? (12:04) So the higher your performance, the higher you'll be on the grid. (12:09) And the potential, that's where many companies and many managers, (12:13) they fail to classify their team based on their potential (12:17) because they mix up with the performance. (12:20) So a high performer not necessarily means it's a high potential. 

(12:24) So maybe it's a professional who does whatever she or he does very well, (12:28) but she or he doesn't have the potential to keep growing (12:32) or, for example, leading other people. (12:35) And the way I do it to understand their performance (12:39) and the ability of them to generate value is through the projects, (12:43) the projects based on the continuous improvements. (12:45) So that's the main reason I give them, (12:48) or one of the reasons I give them these projects, (12:51) because they will be deciding the targets. 

(12:54) The size of the projects, for example, can be something very simple (12:57) or it can be something that will take the entire 12 months of the year to be completed (13:02) because it will also bring something bigger for the company. (13:07) I had this director, this former boss of mine in Gibraltar, Brazil, (13:11) he used to say, like, OK, it doesn't matter if you give me all the best results. (13:15) When I look back, I see a lot of blood on the walls. 

(13:19) That's, of course, not cool also. (13:21) So the house is very important as well. (13:24) And that's why this third pillar for me, (13:26) when dealing with different cultures and different nationalities, (13:30) different backgrounds, is so important because it will generate trust. 

(13:35) And with trust, you can do and you can accomplish everything you want. (13:39) Specifically for the continuous projects, I assume, depending on the type of company, (13:44) probably also the culture of that company, (13:46) it would either, like you said, be bottom-up or top-down, (13:49) then these projects get determined (13:51) because the decision-making and appetite for risk might be different. (13:55) Did you see some trends there? (13:57) Definitely. 

(13:58) Some companies have innovation and risk-taking ingrained in their DNA, (14:02) while others are more conservative, requiring extensive planning and discussion (14:07) before making decisions or taking action. (14:10) And this is very complicated to change. (14:13) DNA is not something that can be changed. 

(14:15) If you're talking about a person or a company, (14:19) of course, you can improve it. (14:21) You can evolve it, but it takes time. (14:24) On other companies also, I've seen, like, (14:27) whenever people or someone try to do something different, (14:30) they receive, like, tons of questions and completely mine. 

(14:35) Any motivation of trying something else, (14:39) this person will be trying once, (14:40) and then the second time, probably, he or she will be giving up. (14:45) But yeah, I've seen all that, and this is something else. (14:48) When you join a new company, you have to access, (14:51) you have to understand the culture of the company (14:54) and the people who are working there, (14:56) and then try to adapt yourself to it to take the best of the situation. 

(15:01) Interesting leadership methodology, for sure. (15:03) Something to pick out of that. (15:04) I want to quickly circle back on something you very briefly mentioned (15:08) while you were going through your career, (15:10) when you talked about Genoma Lab, (15:13) where you said you had to start supply chain function from scratch. 

(15:16) Can you elaborate a bit more about what you did there (15:18) and what was the situation when you started, and what did you do? (15:21) The Genoma business model is a little bit different. (15:23) For example, Genoma doesn't have factories or production facilities. (15:28) Everything is based on contractors, third part. 

(15:31) They own the brands, the formula. (15:34) By the way, Genoma produces some pharmaceuticals and cosmetics as well, (15:39) over-the-counter pharmaceuticals. (15:41) And then they create the formula, they create the brands, (15:44) the marketing, everything, sales. 

(15:46) But the production is always in third parties across South America. (15:52) Kind of a virtual company, almost. (15:54) Yeah, yeah. 

(15:55) What they were doing was, (15:57) okay, they were producing in Argentina and in Mexico, (15:59) and they were just exporting to Brazil. (16:02) So there was only one person and one trainee in supply chain, (16:08) or procurement, or sourcing, located in Brazil, (16:11) just to clean the cargo and deliver it to the pharmacy or supermarket, (16:16) and that was it. (16:17) But the market in Brazil started to pick up and grow (16:21) to a point that they needed to start a supply chain, a procurement, (16:24) and put a robust structure in Brazil. 

(16:29) I was hired exactly in that moment, so I was the first one. (16:33) I was hired with this challenge. (16:35) Okay, so that's what we need to do. 

(16:37) We need to transfer all the supply chain planning, (16:41) the demand planning, everything to Brazil. (16:43) What I did, I brought some people. (16:45) So I started with hiring some people, (16:47) some people I knew from my previous company. 

(16:50) With the people, we started working the process (16:53) with demand planning, with supply planning, inventory management. (16:57) Then we built a facility close to the port in the south of Brazil, (17:02) and then we started to work with the systems. (17:04) So it's always this sequence. 

(17:06) Whenever you join a company (17:07) or you have to build a department from scratch, (17:10) you start with the people, (17:11) with the right people in the right position. (17:13) Then we start working with the processes, (17:15) and then with the system. (17:17) That was exactly what I did in these two, three years in Genoma Lab. 

(17:22) It sounds very complicated, but it was not. (17:26) Some of the process were there. (17:28) It was in Argentina, it was in Mexico. 

(17:30) It was a matter of adapting some of the process to Brazil, (17:34) to the legislations in Brazil, (17:36) or to the reality of the industry in Brazil. (17:39) Another important part was to build the partnership (17:42) with the suppliers and with these contractors, (17:45) with these production facilities, (17:48) because the sales were growing. (17:50) So you need to work with suppliers, (17:53) reliable suppliers and reliable production facilities. 

(17:56) Because once you have a deal with the supermarket, (18:00) let's say with Carrefour, (18:01) with like a big pharmacy or anything like this, (18:04) you cannot fail. (18:05) Your products have to be on the shelves, (18:09) and there's no space for failure in that regard. (18:13) And Genoma Lab invested massively in marketing on TV. 

(18:18) We're talking about 2015 to 2017, something. (18:23) Genoma, for like several months, (18:26) were the company in Brazil that most invested (18:31) in advertisement and marketing in the Brazilian TV. (18:35) That was kind of the business model. 

(18:37) That's actually still the business model of Genoma. (18:40) And that was the role I played (18:42) during my almost three years there. (18:44) Love the first people, then process, and systems last. 

(18:48) Yeah, because many people got it. (18:50) They want to put the SAP with the wrong process, (18:54) and then they do this trash in, trash out to the system. (18:57) Yeah, it's very basic, but you don't see it very often. 

(19:01) And sometimes also people say, (19:02) let's first define the organization structure (19:05) and the processes, (19:06) and then we're going to put the people in it. (19:07) But that doesn't always work, (19:09) especially if you need to start from scratch. (19:11) Interesting learning. 

(19:12) You talked a lot about processes (19:13) and the full end-to-end process for supply chain. (19:17) You say also at Daikin and Givaudan, (19:18) you specifically worked on SNOP. (19:20) Can we zoom in a bit, SNOP specific now? (19:24) It is a planning podcast after all. 

(19:26) What did you do to set up the SNOP process, (19:28) both at Daikin and Givaudan, (19:30) and any recommendations or learnings you have (19:33) for the people that are listening? (19:35) Okay, I'll use the Givaudan example (19:37) because I managed to implement the SNOP (19:41) from beginning to end. (19:42) So it was a full implementation, a successful one. (19:46) Daikin is still ongoing. 

(19:48) The priority is to have like full control (19:51) of your data to start. (19:52) So when you start thinking about, (19:54) okay, now we need an SNOP, (19:56) my experience tells me like, (19:57) no one will be fully committed to meetings (20:00) if the data appears inconsistent or incomplete. (20:04) You don't want to risk your credibility with sales (20:07) or with your superiors or whoever in the company (20:10) due to missing or inaccurate data. 

(20:13) And I'll give you one example here. (20:14) I won't mention the company, (20:16) but I remember when I joined this company, (20:19) my first week, it was an SNOP meeting (20:21) and I was just observing. (20:24) The meeting started and for the 30 or 40 minutes, (20:30) the subsequent 30 or 40 minutes, (20:32) it was sales team asking about the numbers (20:35) and the data that was on the wall (20:38) because, oh, I don't believe this number. 

(20:41) Where did you get this number from? (20:43) It doesn't make sense. (20:44) That's not what I'm seeing on the field, (20:46) or please give me. (20:47) And then the supply chain team (20:49) and the operations team was there in Excel files (20:52) and the system tried to connect the numbers (20:54) and prove that the number that was on the wall (20:57) was the correct one. 

(20:59) Getting control over your data (21:01) from supply chain operation side is crucial. (21:04) Otherwise you will never have the sales on board. (21:07) Additionally, personally, (21:10) I carefully built each step of the SNOP cycle, (21:13) starting with the data reveal, (21:14) data reveal followed by the demand reveal (21:16) and then the supply review and the pre-SNOP (21:19) and then the executive meeting. 

(21:21) By when you get to the executive meeting, (21:24) it's just a matter of making decisions. (21:27) It's not more a meeting to discuss numbers (21:31) or to discuss if something is wrong or right. (21:34) It's sharing the situation, (21:36) the issue, the business case, (21:38) or the data you have to make a decision. 

(21:41) I form a decision and get the sign off (21:44) from the top management. (21:47) Have you seen big differences (21:48) between the SNOP processes at the different companies, (21:51) like Jivadone or Daikin, (21:53) where things are more automated or more manual? (21:56) Anything to share there? (21:57) The main difference I've seen (21:59) among SNOP in different companies (22:02) is basically on the industry itself. (22:05) For example, at Daikin, (22:08) and now I'll be talking about Daikin Middle East and Africa (22:10) because Daikin in Europe, for example, (22:12) is completely different. 

(22:13) In Middle East and Africa, (22:15) most of the Daikin revenue (22:18) comes from large scale and mega projects. (22:22) When you compare an SNOP based on projects like this (22:26) with the Jivadone, for example, (22:28) which is more FMCG company, (22:31) it's completely different. (22:33) The automation plays a role, of course. 

(22:35) So if you can automate it, (22:37) especially for FMCG companies, great. (22:40) But the nature of the business model (22:43) and the industry the given companies is in (22:46) change a lot the way the SNOP is conducted and processed. (22:52) Because you also mentioned, (22:54) like independently of automated or manual, (22:56) but with sales, their incentives, (22:58) they are different from company to company, (23:00) but did you see any trends? (23:01) Like mostly it was because of specific stockouts (23:04) that they experienced. 

(23:06) Because I can imagine if they are experiencing (23:07) certain stockouts or they cannot deliver to a customer, (23:10) then they see the importance immediately. (23:12) Whereas if there is excess stock, (23:14) they don't feel the bad part, let's say. (23:17) Turning that into margin, (23:19) that's a whole different business case to make, right? (23:21) It's much more complex. 

(23:23) Yes, and that's a good point you brought (23:25) because I forgot to mention that at Jivadone, (23:27) at a certain point, (23:29) we even started, remember, I mentioned the data review, (23:33) the demand plan review, the supply review, (23:35) the pre-SNOP and the executive meeting. (23:37) For more than one year at Jivadone, (23:40) we had another meeting inside the SNOP cycle (23:43) called inventory review to take care of our obsolescence (23:48) because our stock was in a very bad situation (23:51) at a given time. (23:53) And during these meetings, (23:55) we started to translate the numbers, (23:59) the stock numbers into more impact (24:02) in the margin for sales. 

(24:04) With the help with the controller, (24:06) which was part of this meeting as well, (24:08) it was basically the supply chain team, (24:10) the production team and the controller, (24:13) the financial controller. (24:15) And we were deep diving in the stock. (24:17) So we knew why the stock was there since when, (24:21) who was the key account manager that sold that stock (24:26) and the impact in his margin. 

(24:29) So we managed to do that inside the SNOP cycle. (24:32) So we were taking the findings (24:34) to the next meeting, the SNOP cycle, (24:37) where sales were involved. (24:39) So that also helped us a lot because let's be fair, (24:43) supply chain, it's complex, (24:45) even for us who have been working supply chain for years. 

(24:49) For the sales team, (24:51) sometimes supply chain is something (24:53) completely not understandable for them. (24:55) So they don't understand it truly (24:57) what's underneath our processes. (25:01) So it's also very important, again, (25:04) to translate whatever is possible to sales. 

(25:07) So you translate supply chain language (25:09) into sales language. (25:10) And that's what also we did at Chivaldan (25:13) concerning to high stock, (25:15) to get their help in avoiding it. (25:18) And also to help us to sell some stocks (25:21) that were still good and within the expiry dates. 

(25:25) High stocks as an opportunity, that's good. (25:27) Yeah, everything can be an opportunity. (25:30) It depends on the perspective you look at it. 

(25:32) From a technology perspective, (25:33) because we spoke about people and then process, (25:36) what role did technologies or tools play (25:39) in your different projects within SNOP, (25:41) but also beyond that even? (25:43) Okay, yeah. (25:44) As I mentioned before, (25:45) so now we're talking systems, (25:47) let's put like tools inside systems. (25:51) Let's talk a little bit about also AI. 

(25:53) My recent experience with AI has been very insightful, (25:57) particularly in how it can save time (25:59) and reduce rework by streamlining processes and everything. (26:03) The main challenges is not the implementation itself (26:06) based on my experience, which can be often quick, (26:09) but the environment into which the tool is introduced (26:12) and the moment when the tool is introduced. (26:16) Resistance from some team members, for example, (26:19) or pre-existing process flaws (26:21) often present bigger obstacles. 

(26:23) In terms of tools for me, (26:25) I'm very much worried about the processes. (26:28) Once it's done, it's what matters the most (26:31) is how can we do it faster, cheaper, (26:35) and avoiding mistakes. (26:37) I'm wondering, it's a complicated subject, (26:39) but how do your employees also look at these tools? (26:43) Because indeed it does save a lot of time and work. 

(26:45) Some people see it as a threat, (26:47) whereas in reality, I believe there's so much work (26:49) and so much things that can still be improved (26:51) so that if you automate, they become new opportunities. (26:53) But how do you look at that and your employees? (26:56) Yeah, yeah, this is interesting (26:58) because at the same time, (27:00) our employees complain about extra work (27:04) or overtime or overload. (27:07) When you try to introduce a new tool (27:10) that will somehow automate their process, (27:14) they will be also complaining because, (27:16) okay, so now on top of my work, (27:19) I'll have to learn this new tool and also implement it. 

(27:23) This is the thing. (27:24) How to show them, of course, yes, (27:26) for a period of time together, (27:28) we'll have to work a little bit more (27:31) to save time, saving money, (27:33) or avoid rework on the longer run. (27:36) This is the challenge indeed. 

(27:37) So showing and demonstrate (27:39) that the effort will be paid off. (27:44) And that's how I try to drive it. (27:45) But also I want to be convinced (27:47) that that particular tool will actually help us (27:52) to save either time, money, or avoid rework. 

(27:57) We have to put on a scale and say, (27:58) okay, this is the amount of effort we'll have, (28:02) but this is the benefits we'll be gaining for the longer run. (28:06) So it's like investing. (28:07) One strategy I use, (28:09) I have more than 20 people. 

(28:11) I had more than 35. (28:13) So we always have someone in your team (28:16) that likes this new tools or innovation (28:20) or try things differently. (28:23) I try to use those people to help me (28:26) to selling the idea to the other members of the team. 

(28:30) It has been working. (28:31) I mean, it's a matter of knowing your team as well (28:33) and how to approach them (28:35) when something new is needed from them. (28:37) And that person or also other people in the organization, (28:40) do you build data skills (28:42) and these advanced capabilities (28:44) within the organization sometimes? (28:46) Or do you say, no, (28:46) we solely rely on outside consultants or vendors for that? (28:50) I've done that now with having two people (28:53) that's helping all the others with this new technologies. 

(28:57) So I was looking on a specific profile (29:00) that could help the others in understanding this analytics (29:04) and how to cross data (29:05) and get insights from the numbers. (29:08) This is a particular profile I like in supply chain, (29:12) especially nowadays when data is so, (29:16) it's available everywhere. (29:17) So the challenge now is to work with the data (29:20) and what you do with the data (29:21) and how it becomes something, (29:24) a competitive advantage for us. 

(29:26) Yeah, indeed. (29:27) And then if you build out such a new project or initiative, (29:31) do you start with a certain sample of the data? (29:32) You start small scale before you go for full implementation? (29:37) You have these different steps to it? (29:38) Yeah, exactly. (29:39) It's part of a risk management. 

(29:41) We start small with the MVP and you experience it (29:46) and you try to get some benefits and then you can expand it. (29:51) So this is the safest way of doing that. (29:55) But of course, there are always exceptions, depending on the resources available, the funds, the time, the urgency,  

because sometimes some projects are urgent. Sometimes you don't have time to test, you have to go all in. And that's also okay. 

If you have the time to test and to be safe and save money and get the most of the benefits with less money, the Pareto 80/20 is the best in my understanding.  

(30:18) But I also understand that sometimes it's not possible and you'll have to go all in and fail fast. That's another strategy. 

Okay, you go all in and if you have to fail, you fail fast and then you try something else also fast. It depends. There's no right answer. 

Did you experience these two scenarios already or? Oh yes. I mean, in Japanese companies, hardly you're going to have the second scenario. They want to understand it and they want a business case and then a second business case. 

And then they will come up with some questions and everything takes a little bit more time when you work, especially with Asian cultures, as we're talking about cultures before. But others like Engie Voda, I had autonomy to go all in several times. I mean, when I need to make a decision quickly, I had my director backing me up. 

If something, especially with sales, because if something goes wrong, sales come to you like with the speed of the light. But I had the chance to experience both worlds. That's what I'm saying. 

No, there's no wrong or right. Based on my profile, the way I like to work, I like to mix both. I mean, a little bit of risk management because I don't like to waste time or money, especially because it's not my money, it's the company's money, but with some risk management. 

So we can go fast, but like managing the risk, it's also possible when you have control of your operations, your team and the process, it's also possible to do it. But that demands a bit of experience in the market you are in, with the people you are working with and so on. 

(31:55) 

Yeah. Listening to your story and all the experiences you have, it's clear that you developed a strong leadership skill in yourself and leadership is key in supply chain, supply chain planning in general to drive all of the collaboration. What key skills would you recommend to young professionals starting in this domain to develop? What are the things that they really need to try to focus on? 

Okay. Especially in supply chain, it's very important to have a stronger personality sometimes and being flexible. But let's talk about three. It's always three. Let's talk about three principles I would like to mention. 

The first one is the ability of speaking up and taking risks. We're just talking about risks now. Many people, especially when young and starting their career, hesitate to take risks due to fears of making mistakes and so on. 

But also by learning a little bit about risk management and applying it both personally and professionally, you can take informed decisions, informed risks and foster a culture where sharing ideas and learning from failures is embraced.  

I like your distinction that you just made about informed risk. So it's not just running blindly into a wall, but it is thinking about what is possibly the impact, and if it's not too bad, just go for it. 

(33:10) 

It's an exercise. It's an exercise, and the more you do it, the better you get at it. You'll be thinking about the risk much easier with the experience, but you have to start it. You have to start it. And the second one is also very important because I see a lack of that in the market. 

Even when you're talking about top management, it's mastering problem solving. As a leader, like you'll always be called upon by both superiors and your team to help them solve problems in supply chain. This is the routine. This is another day in the office. Like, what problems am I solving today? So mastering problem solving is a must. Invest time in learning proper root cause analysis, scenario planning, risk management, and quickly evaluating alternatives will set you apart from 90% of the managers today. 

(34:02) 

And the third one, I think I've mentioned that before. Since I'm here to talk about my experience, I could not mention this. So develop a leadership methodology. If you're managing a team, if you're managing people, if you're responsible for other people's professional lives, you have to know what you're doing. It's as simple as that. 

And again, if I'm saying that, it's because in 21 years, I've seen a lot of managers that are sitting there and they're not quite sure what they're doing there, especially with the people and the team. And by having your own approach to managing people and teams, it will set you apart as a leader. It will foster transparent communication, enhance team engagement, and help you build your personal brand as a manager. So everybody will remember you because you have your unique style and you know what you're doing, why you're doing that, and you're sharing what you're doing. 

And to finish it, don't rely solely on HR courses and training programs. This, for me, is a big, okay, of course they have their importance, but if you only rely on those courses and HR training, the furthest you'll get is being just one more among the crowd of managers that people want to escape from. The way I translate your development of leadership methodology is also you start from caring for the people, but then you need to pour that into a process to support that. 

You just said that you're reading a lot on things, perhaps as a more final question in our conversation, are there any resources or podcasts or websites that you follow to read on these topics and that you can recommend to our listeners? 

(35:40) 

What I have is on Google. So whenever someone's discussing or debating this topic, you receive an email from Google Alerts. What I do is, okay, so if people are talking about this, let's say young leadership or management problems or whatever, you can create your own keywords and you'll be receiving emails from Google, from The Economist, or if you put it in English, you'll be receiving some very good material from Google and you don't need to browse and look for it. 

So this is the strategy I use to gather material and read what's important to me. I think this is a very handy tip already for people. Thanks for that one. 

Yeah, no, it's very helpful. It goes for anything. If you're interested in finance, dogs, whatever, just put the keywords there and you'll be receiving a lot of interesting information, and it will be lifelong learning for me. 

If you go to my LinkedIn, you'll see close to my picture a Michelangelo quote about learning. So lifelong learning is key for everybody, but especially in supply chain. 

Things change so dramatically fast in supply chain. So new tools every day or new possibilities, everything changes. So it's very important to keep yourself updated. 

Don't get overwhelmed. I don't want people to go crazy about knowing everything or developing FOMO. But it's important to stay up to date and at least have an idea of what's happening, even though your company is not implementing it. 

Because now everybody's talking about AI, 100% of companies talk about AI. But what's the percentage of companies actually implementing it, using it, and getting some benefits out of it? It's way less. But it's important to know what's happening. 

So lifelong learning is key. It's, I think, one of my main pieces of advice for any young or old professional in any field. 

If people want to ask you extra questions or see the quote directly on your profile, can they contact you through LinkedIn so we can put it in the show notes? 

Yeah, of course. Sure, I welcome everyone. I love to have conversations like this. I'm very open to that. 

Okay, great. We'll definitely put that in the show notes. Thank you very much, Rodrigo. A lot of interesting insights, and to the listeners, see you next time. 

Bye-bye. 

Yeah, it was my pleasure. Thank you very much.