(0:03) Welcome to the Supply Chain Planning Podcast, where we speak to supply chain professionals (0:07) about their experience in planning. (0:09) I'm Ben, co-founder of Horizon, and Wim is our co-host. (0:13) Hi everyone, I'm Wim, I'm Managing Director of Lanark. 

(0:16) And today we have Jochen Bansemir here with us on the podcast, who is responsible globally (0:21) for planning topics at KNAUF. (0:23) Hello Jochen. (0:24) Hello, good morning everybody. 

(0:26) As a first question Jochen, you've been with KNAUF for quite some time. (0:29) How has it been to grow within the same company for more than 20 years? (0:34) It's an exciting journey. (0:35) So if I look back, I think I started as a trainee really a long, long time ago. 

(0:40) Went through all the different partners which are somehow planning related, was responsible (0:45) also for production scheduling. (0:47) So really also executing on all the planning topics. (0:51) And since May last year, I'm now globally responsible for all the planning activities (0:56) within KNAUF. 

(0:57) It was a great journey and I'm also pretty proud of the way it went. (1:03) About KNAUF a bit more generally, what does KNAUF do for the listeners? (1:07) Not everybody might know the company yet. (1:09) So we are in the building industry, so producing building materials, most of them pretty known (1:15) for gypsum boards and also for insulation materials. 

(1:20) And I think the topic which makes us pretty special. (1:22) So we start with the mining and we really have to supply chain to the customer. (1:28) So it's, let's say, the full cycle which we somehow have to take care of. 

(1:34) Located all over the world with our production plans of our queries. (1:39) And yeah, for us, the material doesn't travel that much, otherwise it's not beneficial anymore. (1:44) So we have to make sure that we have a short way to market. 

(1:48) And you said you're now globally responsible for our planning processes. (1:52) How do those planning processes differ across a different region and across those different (1:57) aspects of the supply chain? (1:58) If you say you go from query to end customer, that must be lots of different kinds of planning (2:05) that are happening there. Can you elaborate a bit more on that? (2:07) Yeah, so for sure, we have different planning systems and we have different planning approaches (2:13) and we have also quite different planning maturity. 

(2:15) So we have quite advanced parts of our business which really run an SNOP cycle since years (2:22) where we already have also digital tools in place. (2:26) And we have also some regions and some divisions where we really start from the scratch and (2:31) now implementing an exit process to get the mindset and the people on board before we (2:37) can really start running a digital solution on that. (2:40) And how do you stitch that all together if they're in such different states? (2:44) How does that work? (2:45) That's really the biggest issue we currently have to jump from somebody who has absolutely (2:50) no experience in planning to the people who also want the high-end solution where we (2:55) have optimization via AI technology and these kind of things. 

(3:00) That's quite challenging in our daily life. (3:02) So probably we have, let's say, a five-step approach and say, OK, first we need to start (3:07) bringing an SNOP process. (3:09) That's the basics. 

(3:11) We say, OK, that's our step one. (3:13) On the second part, we try to get better on the demand planning side, trying to get our (3:18) forecasted currency on a higher level and also bringing in some technology to break (3:23) it down to the needed information that could be on a regional level, could be on an SRKU (3:28) level, could be on a sales level. (3:30) So depending a little bit on what's the biggest need there, then running on the supply planning (3:35) part to bring that demand, let's say, to our different capacities we have in the factories (3:42) across the world. 

(3:43) And then we really want to start going on the execution. (3:46) We want to really use that information to run operations pretty smooth. (3:51) And then the last topic is that we want to allocate our orders the best possible way with (3:57) the product mix we have to our planned network. 

(4:00) And I think these are the five steps. (4:02) So we really think more from not only planning, we really go from planning to execution. (4:07) This is the way we see it within Knopf. 

(4:10) That's very interesting, because you said, if I recap the steps, I start with S&OP, then (4:16) demand planning, then supply planning, then execution, and then that allocation. (4:21) Why do you start with S&OP? (4:23) I heard a lot of people saying before starting with S&OP, we first start with demand planning, (4:27) then we do supply, and then we combine it in S&OP. (4:30) It's interesting to hear you say, no, we start with S&OP. 

(4:34) We say it's a fundament. (4:35) That's the baseline. (4:36) That's what we need to have in place. 

(4:38) We need to have the mindset and everything in place. (4:40) We need to understand why an S&OP process is so important to get transparency across (4:46) our, let's say, division across our region. (4:49) So depending a little bit what we are talking about. 

(4:52) And if we have that mindset and the people in place, if we have a demand planner, for (4:57) example, then we can really go into the technology part of things. (5:01) So yes, the S&OP process has a demand planning part and a supply planning part, but I would (5:08) say that's pretty basic and we do that a lot in Excel. (5:11) So that's already part of the S&OP. 

(5:13) But then going into the digitalization of that process, we start with the, let's say, (5:18) demand planning module before we go for a supply planning module. (5:22) Maybe the S&OP process, for sure, already includes a demand planning part and a supply (5:28) planning part, but that's, let's say, on a pretty basic level because we don't need (5:32) to give the people the latest technology and they are not able to use that. (5:37) So that's why we say process and people come first before we go for technology. 

(5:44) Because you're responsible globally for that. (5:46) So that kind of process, those different steps, you then take best practices from a (5:51) certain region and try to implement it in another, or is the business really very different (5:56) from region to region? (5:58) We have best practices. (6:00) They are more or less coming a lot from our entities in Northern America where we have (6:05) a stable S&OP process over years and we could copy paste a lot out of that. 

(6:11) But for sure, we somehow have to adjust a little bit to the business needs. (6:15) Probably the baseline, the core baseline is the same and we try then to somehow shift (6:22) a little bit. (6:22) We have a clear view of what the market needs, so probably we have to do small adjustments (6:28) to make it work everywhere, but I would say we have a standard approach where we somehow (6:33) need some additional adjustments. 

(6:36) Because indeed those adjustments in process might change, but also tools. (6:40) I'm aware that you also use different tools for different regions, which is also not something (6:44) that all companies do. (6:45) Some companies want to standardize it from their global level. 

(6:48) They say, look, this is what you're going to do at each region. (6:50) You, as far as I understand, allow more freedom for that for each region. (6:55) So yes, we have to understand a little bit the topic and what is the use case behind (6:59) that. 

(6:59) So we have regions where it is more important to look for, let's say the link from the (7:06) strategic planning to the tactical planning. (7:08) And in other regions, we have the bigger need to go from the tactical planning to the (7:13) execution. (7:14) And therefore, we see that different vendors maybe have a different focus on the topic. 

(7:19) And this is why we say, OK, we probably also have different solutions within our network, (7:25) but we at least want to go down to, let's say, these two solutions going from the tactical (7:30) level more to the strategical or from the tactical more to the executioner. (7:35) These are the things that we say that make sense. (7:38) Otherwise, if you have too much in place, then you probably also kill your IT. 

(7:43) Yeah, I can imagine. (7:44) Related to IBP, do you see that as a next step to those five steps that you described earlier (7:50) for each region? (7:51) Or is that actually something that from a global level is standardized across all the (7:55) regions? (7:56) So we want to have there for sure a standard approach. (7:58) We want to bring in our financial numbers into the process. 

(8:01) So that's an evaluation step within our roadmap. (8:04) So maybe talking a little bit about a roadmap. (8:07) So KNAUF will become 100 years in 2032. 

(8:10) So therefore, we have 100 projects to fulfill to this 100th birthday. (8:16) A lot of them are based also on our planning initiatives. (8:20) So we need to, let's say, check the boxes there to enable our KNAUF 100 strategy. 

(8:26) And this is a main topic. (8:28) And therefore, we also need to bring in these financial numbers into our S&OP process. (8:34) OK. 

(8:35) And 100 years, congrats with that to the company. (8:38) But also because you've also been with the company for a long time, how have you seen (8:42) the planning evolve? (8:43) I mean, the kind of systems that you use or processes that you experienced when you're (8:47) doing the planning yourself versus now you're managing at a global level? (8:52) That's really a good question. (8:53) So when I look back a little bit, it was more reacting. 

(8:57) So when I was doing the production scheduling in the past, I just took a look on what orders (9:03) are already there. (9:03) I was somehow calculating a little bit what probably will come over the upcoming weeks. (9:09) And then I placed my production orders in the system. 

(9:12) And this is probably also in a lot of countries and a lot of regions still current, let's say, (9:19) daily workload. (9:21) And I think for me, it changed a lot when I got the opportunity to go seven weeks to (9:27) KNAUF USG, which is part of our group in the US market. (9:31) And I had the opportunity to really deep dive there in their process and their planning (9:37) solution. 

(9:38) That changed my mind a lot because I understood that if you are able to take a look on the (9:43) upcoming three, four, five months, it makes the daily life and operations that much easier. (9:49) And this is why I was always pushing for having proper planning in place. (9:54) Even when I was responsible for Central Europe, I invested a lot of time to get sales on board (9:59) to at least have a simple exit solution that makes life for operations much easier. 

(10:05) And now I have the opportunity to handle that topic on a global level where I'm pretty (10:10) proud about. (10:11) And now I can say, OK, we have to start somewhere with an exit solution, but in other regions (10:16) and countries where we have the maturity, we can already go for the technology behind (10:21) that. (10:21) And that's an amazing time to be in. 

(10:24) If you talk about those different periods, I mean, trying to anticipate it more upfront, (10:27) what are the kind of lead times within your business and what are some specific factors (10:31) you say that cause changes in the short term or a couple of months ahead in the building (10:36) industry? (10:38) So it depends a little bit on which maturity level we have. (10:41) So when we start with our process, we normally really focus on the upcoming month. (10:45) So this is where we say, OK, at the beginning, this is what input we need from a sales perspective (10:50) and where we get also an output which we can rely on. 

(10:55) Then it will be more, let's say, the upcoming three months where we will take a look on. (11:00) And that's probably also what we can handle pretty well from a supply chain side. (11:04) So if we have a good view on the upcoming three months, that helps us a lot because (11:08) all of the time it depends much on the progress of bigger building projects. 

(11:14) So therefore, it's pretty hard to really take a look on the upcoming 6, 8, 12, 18 months (11:21) because you probably won't know which group of material will be needed on, let's say, (11:26) bigger construction sites for that period of time. (11:28) So the focus for us is the upcoming three months and when we start with the process (11:34) to take a look on the first month. (11:37) Coming back to the earlier point, you mentioned the need also getting information for sales (11:41) and also here you say those kinds of projects. 

(11:43) I can imagine that that information sales has a better view on than you, which projects (11:49) might be in the pipeline, what kind of materials might be required. (11:53) Maybe it's not fixed yet, but do you get some sort of insight from them? (11:58) How do you collaborate with them usually? (12:00) So normally it's more over the demand planner, but also there it depends a lot if you go (12:05) from market to market. (12:07) You have quite stable markets where you can say, okay, you have maybe some seasonal indicators, (12:13) but probably the market is quite stable and you can rely on the trend you have. 

(12:18) You also have markets which are quite driven by bigger objects, so that could raise your (12:24) demand sometimes 20, 30, 40 percent if one of the bigger construction site is jumping (12:29) in there. (12:29) So therefore, you need to, let's say, have different approaches if you want to talk to (12:34) sales, depending on the market there. (12:37) Okay. 

(12:38) And you were now talking about sales. (12:40) Who are the other parties that you try to involve in that SNOP process? (12:44) So for us, it's also procurement, which plays a really important role. (12:48) Depending there also a little bit on the product groups we have. 

(12:52) So for example, if you go for profiles, the biggest cost driver in profiles is the steel (12:57) price. (12:58) So probably also our customers react on the steel price. (13:02) So if we have a good outlook on the steel price, we understand steel price will rise. 

(13:06) That means every customer tries to buy before the steel price rises. (13:10) So we have a higher demand. (13:11) If the steel price sinks, then probably everybody's waiting for a better price tag over there. 

(13:18) So therefore, we need a lot of information from our procurement to understand the behavior (13:24) of our customers. (13:26) Is that possible to accurately try and predict the steel price and incorporate that information? (13:31) Yes. (13:31) So we are working on that and we are getting better and better. 

(13:34) And yes, we probably have a quite good view on the upcoming six months. (13:39) What helps us there a lot to prepare and having the right, let's say, amount of material in (13:45) place. (13:46) Okay. 

(13:47) Because that's often a thing when companies talk about, in this case, it's also related (13:51) to demand planning. (13:52) Those external factors, what kind of impact do they have? (13:54) But then like steel prices or other indexes, it's usually difficult to kind of predict (13:59) these. (14:00) But then for you, it's from procurement. 

(14:02) They really go deep into that and then try to get a sense for that. (14:06) It lies with them. (14:07) So they are then just part of our demand planning process when it comes to, let's say, these (14:12) business groups where we have them sales and procurement in because procurement there has (14:17) a high impact so that we have everybody on the table. 

(14:20) So you don't need them for, let's say, every product group. (14:23) So it depends really a lot what you are talking about. (14:26) And this is also the thing which makes the full planning process so interesting at Knopf (14:31) because you have that many, let's say, different approaches. 

(14:34) You have that many different markets. (14:36) You could have also that many different bottlenecks within your supply chain. (14:40) There won't be a one-hits-all standard. 

(14:43) Does that lead to a kind of specialization? (14:46) And so we have dedicated, I don't know, insulation planners and specialized mining (14:51) planners. (14:52) Is that how the organization is growing as we have these internal specialists? (14:56) Or are you trying to make people move across the organization and have as broad a view as (15:00) possible? (15:00) Because somehow you manage, you're explaining all of these differences. (15:04) So you master all of those differences. 

(15:06) What's the view there on trying to grow the organization? (15:09) So currently, we really say we focus on the different divisions. (15:13) So we probably have three main divisions. (15:15) This is the insulation business. 

(15:16) This is the sealings business. (15:17) And this is the gypsum business. (15:19) And they are driving their processes independently because probably they don't have that many (15:25) synergies if you would combine there something. 

(15:28) And also the knowledge of the market, which indicators we have, is quite different. (15:34) For example, on the insulation business, you have to take much more focus on, let's say, (15:39) political actions. (15:40) If there are some, let's say, promotions for renovating, that hits the insulation business (15:46) much more than, for example, the sealings business. 

(15:49) So therefore, we keep them quite independent and try to improve by division to division. (15:56) There is both a regional split in terms of processes and even tools. (16:00) And also then within those three business units that you mentioned, you have your insulation, (16:06) sealings, and gypsum. 

(16:08) Yes. (16:08) And even just to give you an understanding a little bit. (16:11) So for example, in Europe, we try to combine every country in Europe within one clear process, (16:19) which also has to be similar from a timeline because there we have a lot of flow of goods (16:24) between the countries, between the four different regions we have in Europe. 

(16:29) For example, that doesn't make sense for South America. (16:32) So they are just one region where they have some interaction between each other. (16:38) But therefore, we don't need to go that deep into the details like we have it in the four (16:43) regions, which is central, northern, western, and eastern Europe in the European continent. 

(16:49) It's interesting to see that you have these different planning processes by business unit. (16:53) Is that really clear cut throughout the whole supply chain or are there resources that are (16:58) shared over those business units somewhere? (17:00) Because also in other companies you sometimes see, yeah, we have a business unit, but sometimes (17:04) they operate from the same plant and then you still need to discuss who gets which capacity (17:08) in that specific plant. (17:10) Although you have a process per business unit. 

(17:12) Do you have that challenge as well or is everything really clear cut and three different and there's (17:16) no overlap? (17:18) We normally don't have any issues there between the different divisions because you normally (17:22) don't produce gypsum boards where you produce insulation materials. (17:26) So this is really, I would say, separated from each other within the division. (17:31) So for example, within gypsum, it could easily be that western Europe and central Europe (17:36) share capacities from one production plant. 

(17:40) And therefore, for sure, if we don't have a good demand forecast, the currency, then (17:45) there will be a lot of discussions who gets which amount of the capacity. (17:49) So therefore, that's also something which we really want to try with having a standardized (17:54) SNOP process that we have a better view on what we need and that we can also prepare (17:59) our capacities better. (18:00) And in the future, we will serve the demand which was planned first. 

(18:05) And if that is done, then we probably can think about who gets the rest of the capacities. (18:11) Interesting in the future. (18:13) So what's happening today and what is needed to get to that point? (18:17) Because I think what you're describing is the ultimate target that everybody is thinking (18:21) of, but apparently you're not there yet. 

(18:23) Can you explain a bit more? (18:25) We have a lot of discussions about this kind of topic. (18:28) So that means just that we see that probably we have a higher demand than expected. (18:33) And now we are searching for a production capacity which can fulfill the market. 

(18:39) And that's just, let's say, phone calls between people who know each other pretty well. (18:44) So in central Europe, we call in eastern Europe and then we check, is there somebody who is (18:49) able to ship material to serve, let's say, the whole market? (18:53) And this is something which we want to avoid when we have an SNOP process, which is running (18:58) similar across all the different entities within the different local entities in Gypsum. (19:05) What will be the cutoff point or what measure do you need to achieve when you will say, (19:10) OK, now we prioritize forecasted demand? (19:14) And could you say in the future, is there a certain target you want to hit? (19:17) I don't know, with forecast accuracy or something else, when you are going to apply that rule, (19:22) so to say? (19:23) So for sure, we have a target picture, which means forecast accuracy of 95 percent. 

(19:28) This is our target picture to 2032, which we will achieve. (19:31) And we will start with the 1st of January to run the same SNOP process in every local (19:39) business in Europe. (19:40) And probably that will be a journey for the upcoming two years to improve and to, let's (19:46) say, live that new process, have that in the mindset of the people. 

(19:50) And I think with every month, with every transparency we get out of the SNOP cycle, it will be easier (19:57) for us to check, OK, which regional and which cross-regional flow of goods makes sense and (20:02) where we have the opportunity to optimize that. (20:06) 95 percent at what kind of horizon is that measured and at what level in the hierarchy? (20:12) So for the upcoming three months, and that's main article group. (20:16) So we truly believe we are quite flexible on changing our products, that if we have (20:21) the right capacity plan and if we have the right raw material plan, that should make (20:27) our life that much easier. 

(20:29) And we would still be flexible to switch topics on SKU level. (20:33) So therefore, we, from our perspective, say that should be more than enough to drive our (20:38) OTIF KPIs in a different way. (20:40) So you're almost fully make-to-stock. 

(20:42) You don't have the opportunity to make to order. (20:45) Most of our items are clear make-to-stock items. (20:48) So probably we have them within our distribution centers, within our plans. 

(20:53) I'm sure for some special construction sites, we have some make-to-order productions, but (20:58) probably that's a small amount of production capacity. (21:03) We buffer for that and the rest is make-to-stock items. (21:06) Okay, and when setting these targets like 95% or when you look into different regions (21:13) for your three different businesses, how do you set targets? (21:16) Is it something that you look into? (21:18) Is it somebody else that says, look, this is a benchmark within the industry. 

(21:21) So this is what we should be aiming for. (21:23) So we have our 95 target for 2032. (21:26) So that's our target picture for everybody globally. 

(21:29) And let's say we break that down to different divisions, to different regions, to different (21:34) local entities and create their own roadmap, because they are coming from different starting (21:39) points. (21:40) So we cannot say, okay, in 2026, you are there in 2028, you are there. (21:44) So we really have to do that individually, depending on the maturity level of different (21:51) entities. 

(21:52) We talked about this second half 2032 target or program a couple of times now, and you (21:59) referred that planning is part of that. (22:00) Are there more supply chain projects or targets part of 2032? (22:06) Is this a global company-wide program covering everything, marketing, sales, etc., or is (22:11) it specific for supply chain? (22:13) No, there are 100 different initiatives and they are really going across all the different (22:17) business units. (22:18) So this is nothing supply chain related. 

(22:21) That's an overall strategy which we have. (22:24) Therefore, all areas on the business side have to deliver their part to make it a successful (22:30) program. (22:31) Just one, if you look a little bit on the supply chain side, so one is 80% touchless (22:36) order. 

(22:37) That means that the first who has to touch an order is the forklift driver, and we want (22:43) to have 80% of our orders going fully automized through the processes. (22:48) Therefore, you need order management in and outbound logistics, warehouse management, (22:54) and for sure also planning to deliver and to have the right data to be able to have (23:01) the right material at the right plant at the right time for the right customer. (23:06) That's something which touches everybody. 

(23:09) That's perhaps not unique, but still special that a company recognizes the importance of (23:15) supply chain that much that they give them multiple projects in this celebrating the (23:21) anniversary program. (23:23) Does that also mean that in terms of stakeholder management, which we touched on earlier, that (23:27) that is something which is coming really natural in the company? (23:30) So everybody is realizing the importance of supply chain, or you still need to do a lot (23:34) of evangelization and convincing people of the importance of supply chain? (23:39) So I think it shifts now. (23:41) I think with that KNAUF 100 strategy, everybody understands that the way we are currently (23:46) running our business, which is more reacting on topics, just don't fit anymore for the (23:52) future targets we have. 

(23:54) Everybody is really looking how to fulfill these KNAUF 100 targets, and therefore we (24:01) play a really critical role, and that makes our life within the company much easier. (24:07) That's also the reason why two years ago, we said, okay, we will have a global supply (24:12) chain unit, which really somehow collects all the initiatives and make sure we are able (24:19) to deliver and fulfill our target picture. (24:23) And that's where you're in that global unit. 

(24:25) That's where I'm in, yes. (24:26) So I switched from running the operations in Central Europe last May to becoming the (24:32) planning director for global supply chain management. (24:36) Related to this interaction with other departments, we've talked a bit about sales, but with (24:40) finance, if you have that kind of good accuracy, for instance, okay, it's on three months, (24:45) but on the longer horizon, I think you also are doing that kind of planning. 

(24:49) When it comes to budgeting, are you heavily involved in that process with finance? (24:54) Currently not. (24:55) To be honest, we are not that further ahead on our journey to really say, okay, we have (24:59) a good outlook on the upcoming 18 months. (25:01) So we are getting closer to the topic with bringing in some technology on the demand (25:06) planning side. 

(25:07) And there are discussions which numbers we will probably use in the future for our budgeting (25:13) process. (25:13) So we understand that we play a significant role in there, but that's something which (25:18) is on our roadmap, but probably not before 2026. (25:22) Because we first have to bring in accuracy and also a long time few to, let's say, get (25:30) a foot in the door. 

(25:31) Yes. (25:32) Otherwise, if your input is not valuable and you said you're also looking at technologies (25:37) or tools on the demand planning side in that case, but not just demand planning, but planning (25:42) tools in general. (25:43) What are some things that you look at? (25:45) What are some key criteria for you to consider specific tools? (25:49) I think it's a little bit depending on the use case. 

(25:52) As already mentioned, we are trying to somehow link our planning to the execution. (25:58) So this is where also we have the biggest impact on our canal 100 picture. (26:03) So this is why we say, okay, we somehow need to have a good link with our TMS system because (26:08) the freight market and also the capacities over there are one of our biggest bottlenecks. 

(26:14) So having that information automatically to understand where we maybe have to allocate (26:21) materials, not due to capacities we have on the production side. (26:25) That's, I think, one of the major topics. (26:28) So we need to have a good connection to the TMS sector and also to other bottlenecks across (26:33) the supply chain. 

(26:34) Does that actually mean that transportation is part of the S&OP process? (26:39) No, transportation is not part of the S&OP process. (26:42) But for us, it's quite important to have loading and track capacities within the S&OP process (26:48) because often our bottleneck is not the production capacity. (26:52) It's really the freight capacity or the loading capacity in the plant. 

(26:56) And this is why these are two critical things which we take care of in our S&OP process (27:01) as well, yes. (27:02) Yeah, you get input from them on foreseen capacities and you communicate back to them (27:07) if you foresee issues or something like that. (27:09) Yeah, exactly. 

(27:11) We have also had a couple of interesting conversations about companies having internal (27:15) data science teams that are able to cover certain topics for certain regions or business (27:20) units. (27:20) I mean, KNAV is like, I think, 40,000 people or something. (27:25) Is it something that you have internally, data science team? (27:28) And are they involved also in supply chain topics? (27:31) Or it's something that you mostly rely on external vendors? (27:36) We just started with these kind of things. 

(27:39) So also within the planning sector, I'm proud to be the front runner. (27:43) So we brought in our operational excellence unit, which is exactly doing that. (27:47) So we say, OK, we have systems rolled out across, let's say, different countries, across (27:53) different regions. 

(27:54) And we really take a look on, OK, how does our utilization look like? (27:58) Where is the issue coming from? (28:00) So really deep diving into the data and coming down back with clear proposals, what to change (28:06) on the data perspective to make sure we got the value out of the system and that we have (28:11) the benefits we invested for. (28:13) So operational excellence in your company then is about creating this kind of strong (28:19) baseline of data and seeing whether regions use the tools. (28:23) But it's not about creating something specifically. 

(28:25) It's more making sure that the foundation is in place and that the systems are being (28:29) used in that sense. (28:30) OK, they are more responsible for the utilization of the system. (28:33) So from an overall data point of view. 

(28:36) So that's probably a critical question. (28:39) I think we somehow have that on our ecosystem approach where we say, OK, we have a full (28:43) supply chain, a full manufacturing, a full sales ecosystem where we have also probably (28:49) the data lakes, which will handle our master data. (28:54) But that's something which we are currently looking at, what we are building up. 

(28:58) But you don't have data scientists actively involved in demand planning and generating (29:02) forecasts? (29:03) Depends on a little bit. (29:05) So we also see that with the latest technology, it's more about feeding the systems with the (29:10) right data than really running the demand planning process. (29:13) So this is what we try to achieve, for example, with our operational excellence unit, where (29:18) we have the specialists to really make sure we feed the system with the right data that (29:23) the people in the local and let's say regional demand planning cycles are able to get the (29:30) best possible statistical forecast out of the system. 

(29:34) But that's something which we are just ramping up and where we will have the first test regions (29:39) in 2025 and see what will be the outcome. 

(29:43) I do want to know more about the change in the career path you've gone through, 
(29:47) but there's one question still lingering in my mind before we go there. 
(29:50) You talked about Eknauf 2032, the 100 projects and the target for 80% touchless orders. 
(29:57) Is somewhere in that big plan, are all the links clear? 
(30:00) Because if you talk about 80% touchless orders, you need to have that planning correct. 
(30:04) So there's already a link between that one target and your 95% forecast equity target. 
(30:09) Are there more links like that? And are they completely mapped out? 
(30:13) And is it made clear for the whole organization? 
(30:15) Like we will not hit target 87 on its own because it also requires 30, 73, and 95. 
(30:22) Is all those links mapped and communicated? 
(30:24) Or how do you manage that in such a huge organization of 40,000 people? 
(30:29) That's a good thing. 
(30:30) We have a clear and strong buy-in from the general partners on our planning roadmap. 
(30:35) Also on the five steps we have, they see that also as an enabler for 
(30:39) not only the 80% touchless order. 
(30:42) So also for other Eknauf 100 project within the target picture. 
(30:47) And we even got, let's say the challenge to say, okay, 
(30:49) we have our five steps, which we want to roll out. 
(30:53) And we also need to show them now what is needed to make that roll out even faster. 
(30:59) So they buy in on the topics. 
(31:01) And probably we also have from the regional leaders or from the local general managers 
(31:07) quite high demand on that planning journey. 
(31:11) So everybody wants to be part of that. 
(31:13) And we, to be honest, have more of the issues that we say, okay, 
(31:17) we cannot fulfill all the requests at the same time. 
(31:21) So that's quite already a queue of, let's say, business units, which wants to join that journey. 
(31:29) That must be a very nice situation to be in. 
(31:32) Instead of having to fight to get people on board, you're like, oh, wait, hang on. 
(31:35) We can't cover the demand. 
(31:37) Nice bridge to the topic of people and team and growing those people. 
(31:41) How do you go about that? 
(31:42) You have all of these different processes. 
(31:45) And as a global planning director, I assume you also have a responsibility in people development 
(31:50) and career paths and skill levels that are required. 
(31:54) How do you go about that? 
(31:55) How you build that organization to be able to meet that demand, 
(31:59) which seems to be coming naturally internally? 
(32:01) That's an interesting question. 
(32:02) So to be honest, we also have one of our clear Eknauf 100 targets. 
(32:06) Another one. 
(32:08) Is to have 70% of our leadership positions are filled internally. 
(32:14) So therefore there is clear strategy how to develop our people into, 
(32:19) let's say, taking over responsibilities. 
(32:22) There are clear successor rules for all leadership positions, which need to be in place, 
(32:27) or you have them to take care that you get somebody in place over the upcoming 12 months. 
(32:33) So that will be also reviewed by HR and by top management. 
(32:37) So therefore there are initiatives in the background. 
(32:40) And this is where we also heavily invest into the people within Eknauf. 
(32:43) And I think I'm a perfect example. 
(32:45) So I started as a trainee and I had the opportunity to really grow into different positions. 
(32:52) Most of them were on operational sites. 
(32:54) And now I have that amazing opportunity to run such a strategic field within the company. 
(33:01) And I always want to give the people the opportunity to be able to share what they 
(33:06) have done, to be able to present themselves. 
(33:09) So it doesn't have to be me. 
(33:11) I'm more proud of somebody out of the team. 
(33:13) Put the flowers on their head. 
(33:15) Exactly. 
(33:15) So that was the missing word. 
(33:19) When you train people within Eknauf, because those parts are somewhat laid out, 
(33:25) but then do you have certain achievements that they need to get, 
(33:29) or certain skills that they need to develop that are also linked to that part of career 
(33:33) development? 
(33:34) So I think there is nothing which really is clear written down. 
(33:38) So I think it depends a lot on the personality. 
(33:41) So there are, in my eyes, more or less two different streams. 
(33:44) So one is more going for being an expert, which is somehow a little bit underestimated 
(33:50) in my view, because we always look for the people who are in a leadership role, who are, 
(33:55) let's say, owning a lot of different departments and have responsibility for a lot of people. 
(34:02) And we somehow often miss a little bit the experts, which probably don't have the personality 
(34:08) to drive people and to motivate them and to manage them. 
(34:12) But they also play an absolute significant role within the organization. 
(34:17) And this is why I always try to a little bit focus on both sides to make sure that I don't 
(34:23) lose the experts within my team, because they are at least as much as important as 
(34:29) the leadership. 
(34:30) Yeah. 
(34:30) It's a very interesting topic, in my opinion.(34:33) I was discussing it with a friend, and it was about IT, because there also you have 
(34:37) some very strong technical people. 
(34:39) They get promoted to a managerial position, because it's usually the next step. 
(34:42) But it's a whole different kind of role than doing the execution, right? 
(34:46) And you have been in these planning and execution roles, and now more in this managerial role. 
(34:51) How has that been for you, that transition? 
(34:55) Because it's fully different, the role that you have, right? 
(34:57) So first, maybe replying on what you said. 
(34:59) So I think that's one of the biggest mistakes you could do to just say, OK, I'm the guy 
(35:03) who is doing best on operations as the next team lead. 
(35:06) So probably, therefore, you take out your best guy on operations and maybe bring him 
(35:11) in a spot where he won't fit. 
(35:13) So I think that's something which should not be done. 
(35:17) It should be more the look on which personality and where he is about. 
(35:20) Is he more on the expert track, or is he more on the leadership track? 
(35:23) Looking a little bit on my journey, so I had a great mentor within the company. 
(35:28) And that's probably also something which everybody should think about, having something like 
(35:33) a mentoring program, which also backed me up and which gave me a lot of feedback on 
(35:38) which I could grow. 
(35:40) And that was a successful connection. 
(35:42) And probably, I won't be at this position without him, because even in a company like 
(35:48) Knauf, where you have a target picture of having 70% of the leadership roles handled 
(35:54) with internals, having such a career path is quite unique. 
(35:58) And therefore, having the right people at the right time and place and mentoring you 
(36:03) is critical. 
(36:06) And then you're also fulfilling that role for some other people, or is it just one person 
(36:11) that you're doing it for? 
(36:13) For sure. 
(36:13) I always look into my team. 
(36:15) I have quite strong candidates there, which I want to further develop where we have a 
(36:20) plan over the upcoming three years. 
(36:23) So depending a little bit, going more on the expertise side or going more on the professional 
(36:27) side. 
(36:28) So also with ramping up now our operational excellence unit, we took that more or less 
(36:33) with people who are already within the company or within the planning team. 
(36:39) So to give them the opportunity to have another few to enlarge their scope. 
(36:45) And that keeps them engaged because they see that they are part of the way we are moving 
(36:51) forward. 
(36:52) It's great to see this grow from within culture. 
(36:55) And I also assume it's one of the aspects that help you find talent. 
(37:00) Do you have specific challenges to find the right people to join at the bottom of the 
(37:05) ladder and picking up planning roles? 
(37:06) Is that challenging or is that going rather easy? 
(37:10) It's challenging. 
(37:10) You also have to think about where we are located. 
(37:13) So we are located in Epochum. 
(37:14) That's our headquarter. 
(37:15) So probably you've never heard about that. 
(37:18) I was thinking where? 
(37:20) That's not a fancy city like Munich or Berlin. 
(37:23) It's probably in the middle of nowhere. 
(37:24) So getting the right people here is not that easy. 
(37:28) So we also think about a lot how to make sure we are also able to bring them in on other 
(37:35) locations. 
(37:35) I have a colleague who is working and coming from Prague, by the way, which is not always 
(37:40) that easy because you don't have them on site all the time, which also has to change your 
(37:45) leadership skills because it's just much easier if you're sitting face to face to each other. 
(37:50) Or if you see them probably once or two times a month or depending on where they are located, 
(37:57) not even that. 
(37:58) And that is changing a lot. 
(38:00) And also we see that the fight for talent is extremely hard. 
(38:04) You have to take care of them and you have to give them an outlook over the upcoming 
(38:11) years and their career path to make sure they stick to the team and to the company. 
(38:17) Is that your main argument to attract people still do come in? 
(38:22) Some people still choose Knauf. 
(38:24) What is the main argument that you hear afterwards? 
(38:26) Why they chosen Knauf? 
(38:28) We are a great company. 
(38:29) So that's first. 
(38:30) And I think we have really a great mindset here within our Knauf group. 
(38:36) And probably if you are engaged and if you want to, let's say, do the extra mile, it 
(38:42) probably pays out because we want to develop our people internally. 
(38:47) And for sure, that strategy helps us a lot to be attractive also for, let's say, people 
(38:53) who have the right mindset and the talent. 
(38:56) Makes me also wonder because you're a German company and you're also very structured. 
(39:00) It's a bit of a cliche, but it seems to be true. 
(39:03) Do you find that you cannot attract certain types of people because of the way that you 
(39:08) are structured or the image that you do have? 
(39:11) I think it's not the way we are structured or the image we have. 
(39:15) That's probably how well known we are. 
(39:17) I think probably everybody who is building up a house has probably had some, let's say, 
(39:23) touch points of Knauf material, but probably nobody knows which company group is standing 
(39:28) behind of that. 
(39:30) What a global player that is on each market around the world. 
(39:34) And I think this is something we are like that hidden giant in the background. 
(39:39) But due to the fact that we are that much hidden, we are probably not that attractive 
(39:43) for people. 
(39:44) Even if we have some interviews with some applicators, they're really like, wow, I was 
(39:50) not aware how big that company is and what topics you are doing over here. 
(39:54) That's amazing. 
(39:55) So probably we have to step up there a little bit in the future to make sure everybody is 
(40:00) aware of our company and our philosophy behind it. 
(40:04) Yes. 
(40:05) This podcast will already make some people more aware, hopefully. 
(40:08) I'm looking for the applications already. 
(40:11) Yes, yes. 
(40:14) I'm also wondering from a more personal perspective, your perspective. 
(40:19) It's maybe too specific, but I'm curious, your day-to-day, not per se what does it look 
(40:23) like, but more what worries you these days and how does it compare versus what you worried 
(40:29) about in the past in your different roles? 
(40:32) So I think what I was worried about in the past was more, okay, you went to the office 
(40:35) in the morning and said, okay, what the hell that happened overnight where we had some 
(40:39) issues with some productions? 
(40:41) What is affected? 
(40:42) How to save their things? 
(40:44) How to shift volume between plants to make sure that we have as less possible impact 
(40:50) on the customer? 
(40:51) I think that was more the topic in the past. 
(40:54) Currently is a lot about, okay, where do we stand with which progress where we need an 
(40:59) alignment with the stakeholders? 
(41:01) It helps me there a lot that I'm coming from the business side. 
(41:04) So I was responsible for operations. 
(41:06) So speaking there to the regional management makes that easier for me because I understand 
(41:12) their pain points and I can sell them pretty easily why that planning approach is that 
(41:18) important to solve that. 
(41:19) So probably that's something where we are doing quite good, but for sure having technology 
(41:25) in place and which standardizing and harmonizing our processes before, that's the critical 
(41:32) topic. 
(41:32) Due to the fact that we have historically a local governance on a topic, we also have 
(41:38) quite local processes and the local way to markets. 
(41:42) And therefore that it's the tough point to say, okay, but we somehow need to fit in a 
(41:47) standard to make sure that a system is doable. 
(41:51) Because if you adjust everywhere and if you configure everywhere, then probably you won't 
(41:56) get the benefits out of the system which you are aiming for. 
(42:00) And I think this is the hard role to really make sure we are running somehow on a standardized 
(42:06) process and maybe you cannot fulfill all the requirements and all the needs from the different 
(42:13) entities.(42:31) And based on those 20 years and many different roles and that nice career path, do you have 
(42:36) any career advice for starting planners or other planners listening to the podcast that 
(42:42) you think these are really things I learned in those 20 years that I would recommend to 
(42:46) others? 
(42:47) I think you must have an open mindset. 
(42:48) There are that many people who say, okay, we have done that for the last 20 years and 
(42:54) we were quite successful. 
(42:56) And I think to be really somewhere who is pointing out, you have to bring the mindset 
(43:01) and you have to bring the engagement and you also somehow have to bring that trial and 
(43:06) error topic up front. 
(43:07) So I think if you are able to step up, run maybe different processes, try to use the 
(43:13) system differently, then you probably already shine out. 
(43:17) And for sure, you should also be able to sell that a little bit to your managers and 
(43:22) make sure that you are on their radar. 
(43:25) And I think that's already more than enough because probably when we are looking into 
(43:31) the current applicators and also in the current mindset of the people, 90% is looking on 
(43:37) work-life balance and probably you want to find that 10% who are able to do the extra 
(43:42) step to make sure their careers are developing in the right direction. 
(43:47) It's an interesting topic, that last one, because we were discussing it also in a previous 
(43:51) conversation where I asked the question, because I'm quite a bit younger than Wim, 
(43:55) for instance. 
(43:58) Apologies. 
(43:59) I was asking, it was also with Peter, I was asking, do you see indeed a change in people 
(44:03) over the different generations in their work ethic or amount that they want to learn or 
(44:09) initiatives that they are taking on? 
(44:12) Definitely. 
(44:12) And I think it's getting faster and faster there. 
(44:15) I think looking back 20 years, probably with the behavior of the people currently growing 
(44:22) up, you won't have been successful 20 years ago. 
(44:25) It's really changing a lot. 
(44:27) And it's also not that easy to adapt there your leadership skills because you have to 
(44:33) touch them quite differently. 
(44:35) And that's a major thing to be successful in the future, to be able to adapt to the new, 
(44:41) let's say, generation of people. 
(44:43) Yeah. 
(44:44) Key advice is for people to actually take initiative and then also be able to convince 
(44:49) other people and present to other people their results. 
(44:52) And then for leaders, it's being able to adapt also to this kind of new generation, 
(44:56) so to speak. 
(44:58) Okay. 
(44:59) Any resources that you have that you say, look into these books or trainings? 
(45:06) I would say I'm more on the practical or not on the theoretical side. 
(45:10) Okay. 
(45:10) You should listen to the people. 
(45:12) You should take your time to really make sure you have your one-on-ones. 
(45:16) You discuss the topics. 
(45:18) You give them the opportunity to speak open about their career ideas and what they want 
(45:24) to achieve. 
(45:25) I think that's the biggest topic. 
(45:27) Therefore, you don't need any books. 
(45:29) Okay. 
(45:30) That's also some great advice. 
(45:32) Thanks a lot, Jochen. 
(45:32) We've come to the end of the episode. 
(45:34) I've heard a lot of great insights. 
(45:36) So thank you very much for that, Jochen. 
(45:37) Thank you. 
(45:38) Can people contact you if they still have any questions through LinkedIn or so? 
(45:41) Yeah, for sure. 
(45:42) Please feel free. 
(45:43) Okay. 
(45:44) We'll link it in the podcast notes. 
(45:46) Once again, thanks, Jochen. 
(45:48) And goodbye to everyone. 
(45:50) Bye. 
(45:51) Thanks, Ben. 
(45:51) Thanks, Wim. 
(45:52) What a pleasure. 
(45:52) Goodbye.