In this episode, Ben and Wim sit down with Johan Van der Straeten, a supply chain leader with experience at Philips Lighting, PwC, and currently working as Group Supply Chain Manager at Reynaers Aluminium. 

Johan reflects on his journey from engineering to supply chain leadership, detailing his experiences in planning, procurement, and implementing strategic initiatives.  

He shares insights on setting up S&OP processes, leveraging AI in demand planning, and balancing sustainability with cost and quality considerations. Johan also discusses connecting legacy systems, fostering supplier collaboration, and the value of networking in supply chain planning. 

Key topics covered include: 

(0:03) Welcome to the Supply Chain Planning Podcast, where we speak to supply chain professionals (0:07) about their experience in planning. (0:09) I'm Ben, co-founder of Horizon, and Wim is our co-host. (0:13) Hi everyone, I'm Wim, I'm Managing Director of Lanark. 

(0:16) Our guest for today is Johan van der Straeten, who has been at Philips Lighting, PwC, and (0:21) currently at Reynaers Aluminium. (0:23) Welcome to the podcast. (0:25) Thank you for having me. 

(0:27) First of all, I will give a brief introduction to your different roles in the past. (0:31) First, you worked at Philips Lighting for about seven years, first as a production engineer (0:36) and quality engineer. (0:37) Then you moved on to planning there briefly, within demand planning and also supply planning, (0:42) before moving on to PwC for about five years. 

(0:46) So you made a switch there to consulting within strategy and operations. (0:50) And then after that, you've transitioned into Reynaers Aluminium, where you've now been for (0:54) two years as a group supply chain manager. (0:57) And for the listeners, Reynaers Aluminium is a manufacturer of aluminum solutions for windows, (1:03) doors, and facades. 

(1:04) Did I capture that correctly, Johan? (1:07) Yes, that's a good summary of my career. (1:09) It was nine years at PwC, but that's the only thing I could find in your description. (1:14) Okay, that was pretty far off than actually on mind. 

(1:17) But you've basically gone from industry to consulting and back to industry. (1:21) How has that been? (1:22) We haven't really had a guest who's made that transition to consulting and back again. (1:26) I think for me, it was kind of a natural flow. 

(1:31) I think I always had the idea, you can only move into consulting when you have experienced (1:37) the thing that your clients experience yourself. (1:40) I had the idea when I graduated as engineer, maybe I should start in consulting, but I (1:45) felt that I was not yet ready. (1:47) I think it's 18 years ago, so it's also a different world. 

(1:50) I decided to join industry, learn a lot. (1:53) I also, at that moment, decided to join a big multinational, Philips Lighting. (1:57) It doesn't exist anymore today, now it's called Zynify. 

(2:00) But that was really a conscious choice to find out what I was actually good at, because (2:06) you graduated as engineer, but yeah, what can you do? (2:10) What is your strength? (2:11) It's a completely different world beyond academics, if you move in my first job towards quality (2:17) engineer in an assembly department with a lot of, I would say, operators have blue colors, (2:24) but also with a sister factory in China, and you needed to manage the whole collaboration (2:29) between the two. (2:30) I think it was a very good learning experience for me to step into the real world of working, (2:36) I would say. (2:37) And you also made another step there and moving from more production-related engineering role (2:42) into supply chain. 

(2:43) I'm an engineer myself as well, so I know what that means, but how did you feel that (2:48) change from pure engineering to planning? (2:51) Did you have to learn a lot of new things or how did it go for you? (2:54) Yes, of course, you need to learn a lot of new things, but I think it's always good to (2:58) expand your own horizon and to understand a bit the things you execute, you have execution (3:04) and you have the planning of execution. (3:05) And if you understand in both areas, what are the pitfalls, what are the important elements, (3:11) I think it's very good. (3:11) I did a smooth transition, to call it like that, because first I was into operations (3:17) execution for four years, but then I stepped into a business improvement role. 

(3:22) It was called Lean Six Sigma Black Belt. (3:24) It was at that time in Philips, the kind of internal consultancy role where you were assigned (3:30) to projects and those projects could be in any type of function. (3:34) And that's how I got my first introduction into planning, into demand planning, promotion (3:39) planning. 

(3:40) Also in procurement, I had my first project and then I started to see that there's a lot (3:45) of knowledge that I didn't have, but that really connected well with my experience from (3:50) the floor, I would call it, the factory floor and knowing when you do a promotion planning (3:54) from a planning and scheduling perspective, you think about all the elements on how do (3:59) we go position it, what's the timing, but when you also know that whatever you decide in (4:04) planning has a consequence on your shop floor, on your machines, on your output, on your (4:08) shift regimes, on the way everything is managed there, I think it really gives you the end (4:12) to end view of the whole supply chain. (4:15) And I think that was for me a very good, again, lessons learned. (4:18) Would you say that having had that first production experience helped you to be a better planner? (4:24) Yeah, I'm sure of that. 

(4:25) No, no, I think I'm pretty sure of that. (4:27) I think it's my general idea. (4:29) It's also, if you look at my career, there was never a point in which I said, now I will (4:33) specialize in one direction and forget about all the other elements. 

(4:37) I think one of the things that I always valued a lot is how can I get the best understanding (4:41) of the whole value chain? (4:43) And like I said, there is a score model in supply chain and planning is one component. (4:48) There is execution, but there is also delivery. (4:51) There is the whole sourcing component. 

(4:53) And now I can say that I have covered or checked all the boxes, you could say it. (4:57) I'm not a specialist in all of them, but I do have the right understanding of the base (5:03) principles and how you can apply them. (5:05) And again, I continue learning. 

(5:07) There are a lot of things that I still don't know sufficiently with enough expertise, but (5:12) I'm young enough. (5:14) You were also involved in the SNOP process there, right? (5:17) When you were in demand planning and supply planning, did you have a good enough concept (5:21) of it, you would say, at the time to be involved in it? (5:24) Or would you say, well, my understanding has evolved a lot since then? (5:27) Because you're also now doing that at Renaers. (5:29) So do you still remember how you felt about it back then? (5:32) The way I was introduced to the process, first, I did a project on demand forecasting and (5:39) how to do that in Philips for different markets. 

(5:42) I created a tool, how to find out which are the items that had the biggest deviations. (5:47) At the time before big data was a buzzword, it was how can you, from your ERP, distract (5:53) all the relevant input. (5:55) Then I got introduced to the process and then they asked me to become the demand planner (6:00) for all the, they called it emerging regions. 

(6:04) And emerging regions are typically the regions where you have a lot of volatility, where (6:09) the typical standard forecasting with historical data is more difficult, but then the process (6:14) component is a lot more important. (6:16) You need to understand your market, your promotions, your customers. (6:20) So the collaboration with sales and marketing, that process part was, let's say, my first (6:25) experience with the process. 

(6:26) I had the luck that as an OP, as a concept, was already introduced years before I joined. (6:33) And being in a multinational, everybody has the understanding and maturity of the process. (6:40) I think in Philips at that time, I also experienced that as an OP, as such, can be very administrative (6:49) sometimes and procedural. 

(6:50) If you don't set it up right, it becomes like a talking forum and everybody talks. (6:55) But if you don't assign the right responsibilities, what is the impact of the planner? (7:00) He or she is just consolidating inputs, making a proposal, and that's that. (7:05) I found out that the pure consolidation part of that process for me never worked. 

(7:11) I spent at that time, I think one week a month at the first week of the month to create PowerPoints, (7:17) to capture data, to put it in the right format, and then have a one hour discussion with the (7:23) market to understand what went wrong in the past and what do we project for the future. (7:28) It was a bit overdone. (7:29) After six months, I also indicated that, and then there was a supply planner role, which (7:33) was actually the week two of the process where you try to consolidate all the inputs and (7:39) turn it into a supply plan with inventory management, with all the factory scheduling and so on. 

(7:45) Also that I did for six months. (7:47) And that's where I started to really see how everything is connected together. (7:50) If you don't do a proper forecasting, you can never make a good supply plan. 

(7:55) Your inventory levels will be wrong. (7:57) And you always go back to this continuous loop where everybody has to work together to (8:02) balance all the requirements. (8:04) I think it was very nice. 

(8:06) But I also felt that at that time, my career at Philips stopped. (8:10) I only left the company because they went through a whole restructuring, actually the (8:15) fourth one in the seven years I worked there. (8:17) And I said, okay, I'm too young to stay in a company that is continuously declining. 

(8:21) I want to be in a growing company, but for the rest, I can only be very positive from (8:25) a perspective of what I learned at Philips, how things were organized and maturity of (8:30) certain processes. (8:31) So I'm very happy that I had a chance to work there for so many years. (8:35) Like you were considering after graduating, you actually did go in consulting at that (8:40) point, right? (8:40) Rather than going to another manufacturing company. 

(8:44) Yeah, correct. (8:44) Because I did enjoy my project role. (8:48) I called it the Lean Six Sigma Black Belt, where I did all kinds of projects first internally (8:52) at Philips. 

(8:53) And I thought, okay, that's something that I really enjoy. (8:55) You're always exposed to another part of the value chain. (8:58) You're exposed to a new environment that we try consulting. 

(9:01) And like everybody that's first starting consulting, you will do that for two years. (9:05) You will learn a lot. (9:06) And then you select the customer you want to work for. 

(9:09) That's a bit how a lot of people start in consulting to see where they fit the best. (9:13) It didn't work out like that for me, because I had good reasons to stay longer. (9:18) What were those good reasons? (9:20) I think there are many. 

(9:21) I think consultancy has a lot of intellectual challenges. (9:25) You are always exposed to new environments. (9:28) And for a person that is interested in, let's say, new areas, it's a perfect place. 

(9:33) Because you learn a lot. (9:35) You're also on top of a lot of new developments, because just to give you one example, after (9:40) a few years, I became responsible for Industry 4.0, digital. (9:45) How do you apply that in manufacturing? (9:47) And I enjoyed that. 

(9:48) And I had a lot of insights from what the frontrunner companies were doing. (9:53) But you can only have that if you have visibility on different companies. (9:57) If you work in one company, it depends on where your company is to understand what is (10:02) Industry 4.0. (10:03) And you can go to events. 

(10:05) You can go, of course, you can read a lot. (10:07) But feeling it, seeing it in practice, getting the exposure to what is working and what is (10:12) more the marketing story behind and what is really already applied. (10:16) I think there, consultancy was a perfect place to begin. 

(10:20) You started in the beginning saying, I first want to have the practical experience before (10:23) I go in consulting, which I really like as an approach. (10:26) Once you are in consulting, how do you make sure you stay in touch with what is really (10:31) happening on the floor and happening out there and not have this kind of almost academic ivory (10:36) tower approach? (10:36) How did you go about that? (10:38) I think in my case, I always did operations consulting. (10:42) And I cannot compare with other types of consulting, but my clients were factories, were operational (10:48) people. 

(10:49) Where do you meet them in their location, right? (10:52) You went there, you had to see the process. (10:54) I did so many site visits to understand the way everything was set up, value chain, supply (11:00) chain. (11:00) I think that was a very good way. 

(11:02) But I find it inherent to the type of consultancy that you stay connected to the practical world. (11:09) And what I also always enjoyed is that I did projects where there was always a kind of (11:14) design phase or more conceptual strategy phase, you could call it, but also an implementation. (11:20) Of course, not in every project we were involved, but I had the good balance or the good mix (11:25) of executional consulting versus more strategic conceptual consulting. 

(11:30) And having been on both sides of the table twice now, do you have an opinion or a vision (11:36) on what things a company should do definitely internally and what things you can use consultants (11:42) for? (11:43) Yeah, I have an opinion about that. (11:44) Is that the reality or the truth? (11:46) I cannot judge that. (11:47) But if I can share my view on it, I am 100% convinced that a company and industry should (11:54) use consultants because I believe that as a company, you have the responsibility to bring (12:00) in fresh eyes and new perspectives. 

(12:02) And of course, there are different ways to do that. (12:04) You can have a lot of new hires. (12:06) That's also a way to bring in new fresh blood. 

(12:08) But maybe that's a bit too much. (12:10) It has to be a good balance between external expertise. (12:14) That's how you bring in the real, let's say, what's happening outside your four walls. 

(12:19) I also think that not every situation requires consultancy. (12:23) So that's now I put it on my head of industry. (12:26) Don't use consultants if you can do it your own, and especially for motivation of people. 

(12:31) If it's so straightforward of what has to be done and your people have brought up the (12:35) ideas, give them then also the empowerment and time to do so. (12:39) Again, then you can make a reflection who is in the lead because sometimes you don't (12:44) have the time yourself and then the consultant becomes the enrichment of your capacity of (12:49) your workload. (12:50) So there are many different reasons. 

(12:51) But I think in the future, also looking at the way work is organized today, the types (12:58) of expertise you need, and sometimes only for the short term, these are all elements (13:03) that you need to take into account when you consider hiring a consultant, yes or no. (13:08) Do you have like specific problems or areas where you would say their consultants have (13:14) more value than in other problems? (13:16) For instance, setting up a process or implementing a system. (13:21) These different use cases, do you have some sort of best practice? (13:25) There is not, let's say, one truth, I think. 

(13:27) What I can share is from my experience. (13:30) Let me also explain a bit how I moved again back to Reinhard's group. (13:35) So back into industry, I was a consultant building the strategy for the future. 

(13:40) How should Reinhard's group organize themselves from operational perspective to meet the growth, (13:45) to meet the customer requirements? (13:47) I made a beautiful slideshow and that's your question on how do you stay connected to the (13:51) real world? (13:51) Well, I stay connected to the real world by the challenge of implementing that slideshow. (13:57) Eat your own food. (13:58) Eat your own food. 

(13:59) And now I'm doing that for two years and I can say not everything that I put on slide (14:03) has become reality. (14:05) That's also a lesson learned from my side that at a certain moment, you start to overestimate (14:10) a bit what can be done in a particular time window. (14:13) There is always this reality of business as usual. 

(14:17) And then you have the forward thinking. (14:19) This is how it should be done. (14:20) And you need to set up programs and improvements and the whole transformation has to go like (14:24) this. 

(14:25) But what you forget then when you are on the consulting side is that there are so many (14:29) things that happen in daily business that you cannot neglect. (14:32) So that's a lesson learned from my side. (14:35) The plan was overambitious, but I still stay connected to the vision. 

(14:40) Of course, I cannot say it differently. (14:41) I made a plan so I cannot now shoot it at all. (14:44) But I still am very convinced that we've set the right things. 

(14:47) I think only the estimation of timeline was too ambitious. (14:51) And of course, there is progressing insight and you can never have full nuances when you (14:56) bring in this strategic thinking. (14:58) You don't get all the details. 

(15:00) So you make some errors in, let's say, tweaking of the processes. (15:05) But that, again, is for me a belief that you should hire consultants to do so because they (15:10) are not on the one hand, they will never be detailed enough to give you the full plan (15:14) with all details. (15:15) So don't expect that. 

(15:16) But they do bring in some more conceptual thinking. (15:19) They take a bit more distance from the daily mess or the daily issues and the way it's (15:24) set up now. (15:25) It's like sometimes starting with a fresh sheet and to look at things from a different (15:29) angle. 

(15:30) That's why I truly value those two perspectives. (15:33) I think especially when it comes to benchmarks or seeing how other companies are doing it, (15:38) what works, what doesn't. (15:39) It's indeed good to have this overview of different projects. 

(15:42) I'm wondering for Rennar specifically what that strategy is regarding that you actually (15:49) built and where you are right now. (15:51) Not sure if you can share all the details, but you said the timeline was quite ambitious. (15:56) Do you have specific targets in mind and where are you along that journey? (16:00) I can share a few elements, of course, without telling all the details, but it was a strategy (16:06) for operations. 

(16:07) So it was not only for supply chain and procurement, which is today my responsibility, but there (16:12) were elements in it on footprint, where to put your next operational centers, where to (16:18) allocate capacities, how should you really look at the growth from a volume perspective. (16:23) I will not comment on that, but there was also a component on processes and systems. (16:28) On the processes, it was to install the S&OP process and to really use that to better adapt (16:36) your operations to your sales reality. 

(16:38) A bit of context, when I was a consultant, I made the plan just after COVID. (16:43) And COVID for the construction industry was Valhalla. (16:48) Demands were growing, everybody was going to renovate their house, everybody needed (16:52) new windows and doors, and that was never forecasted, and operations could not follow. 

(16:59) There was a lot of disappointment of customers that we were not able to deliver and so on (17:03) and so on. (17:04) So that created a condition of what happens if you are in this unpredictable demand. (17:09) So we said, let's install the S&OP process. 

(17:12) But the S&OP process, you are also a supply chain expert, it requires a lot of different (17:19) components. (17:20) There is demand planning, there is supply planning, there is capacity management, and (17:24) so on and so on. (17:25) And none of these things existed at Rijnaar Group in a structural way. 

(17:29) When they did exist, there were, let's say, ad-hoc things and more siloed elements, but (17:34) the connection between all those steps was not made in an explicit way. (17:39) But of course, you start thinking, let's set up demand planning. (17:42) But then if you don't have an organization with demand planners and you need to set up (17:46) demand planning, how do you do that? (17:48) It's a question and you can look at different options. 

(17:51) I can install an organization with demand planners and look at it, but yeah, that costs money, (17:56) right? (17:56) And I don't have the capabilities, so I need to hire people with capabilities. (18:00) It will take me six months before I found the right person. (18:03) Before that person is really on board, let's take another six months. 

(18:06) So in one year, I can finally say I have started something on demand planning. (18:10) Timeline and so on, take it as an example. (18:12) It's not really linked to the Rijnaar case. 

(18:14) But then I said, okay, it's overambitious. (18:17) Let's start with AI. (18:18) Let's forget about the demand planners. 

(18:20) Let's use AI software to build that forecast. (18:23) It's a black box. (18:23) And let's only use the outcome and use the typical process of forecast accuracy and (18:28) so on to see if we are good enough. 

(18:29) But then I don't need a real demand planner that can tell me what is the right model on (18:34) the data. (18:35) We did that. (18:36) We implemented that. 

(18:37) It worked and actually quite well. (18:40) But what I forgot was the people component and how to interpret the results, how to trigger (18:45) the right conversations with your salespeople. (18:47) If they are used to talking euros, how do you translate that to volumes? (18:52) How do you tell salespeople that they need to consider the mix? (18:56) Because in our industry, you cannot push for, let's give an example, this is a type of window (19:01) you need to buy. 

(19:03) It's the other way around. (19:04) The architect draws a house and says, this is the window I want. (19:07) Of course, there is a bit of, let's say, general trends that you can follow, but there is not (19:11) this push model that we say we will sell this type of window. 

(19:16) It's not feasible. (19:17) Typically in Belgium, it's still the sector where everybody wants to have something very (19:21) unique or they think it's unique. (19:23) That whole process is what I underestimated. 

(19:27) And I think it was a lack of sector knowledge from my side. (19:31) Looking back at it, would you do it in a different order where you would first focus more on (19:36) the salespeople and trying to get their insights on what's happening and see, okay, their value (19:41) forecasts or targets? (19:42) Can we translate that into volumes rather than starting with AI on the actual volumes? (19:47) Or would you still have done it the same way? (19:49) I would do it in a different way. (19:52) What I don't regret is that I jumped to action. 

(19:55) And that's what I really like about Reynaers group is that if you have an idea, there is (20:00) a vision behind it and you have a good business case, then we do it. (20:04) And I think that is really what I appreciate about the company. (20:07) And I would still move into action. 

(20:09) Looking back, did I take the right action at the beginning? (20:11) Knowing what I know today? (20:13) No, I think I should have spent more time on understanding the sales part of the process, (20:17) but also to reflect a bit on how are we going to use it? (20:22) I started from this concept of I know how S&OP works. (20:26) You have demand planning and it goes to that level of detail. (20:29) And then you have supply planning and you need that to build this capacity plan. 

(20:33) But all of these components, when I look at it today, maybe we don't need it in the (20:38) way that I envisioned it at the beginning. (20:41) It was too much for what we need. (20:42) And I think that's a lesson learned that you cannot always know that upfront is to really (20:47) say in this company, we need to go to this level of maturity to get this right balance (20:52) of impact versus effort. 

(20:54) Because S&OP is a never ending process. (20:56) Every time you can improve, but there is some kind of top point in which you say, now with (21:02) the efforts I have done, I get the maximum output. (21:04) I can always continue and put more efforts in it. 

(21:06) But it will be marginal gains. (21:08) I overestimated the thing that were required to get to the top point. (21:13) Do you still have only the AI solution now or did you complement that with a demand (21:18) planner? (21:18) What's the setup now? (21:19) Yeah, I did first do the AI tool, but then I also only a few months later started to (21:25) reshape the role of our supply chain analyst towards S&OP plans. 

(21:30) So it was indeed, there was also an organizational component, but it was more not a restructuring, (21:35) but a revision of the roles that we had. (21:38) In our case, we had analysts, but I don't see an analyst in the same way as I see an (21:43) S&OP planner. (21:44) I don't want people just to analyze things that they also have a responsibility for results (21:48) and outcomes. 

(21:50) That's for me, the difference between analyst and planner. (21:53) Okay. (21:53) It's my own terminology interpretation of the role, but I do think that you need this (21:58) kind of don't analyze just to analyze, there is a result that you want to achieve and that's (22:03) what you also should have people accountable for. 

(22:06) We had that discussion in previous episodes as well. (22:09) It's interesting that you talk about analyst and planner. (22:12) Do you see different skill sets needed in those people and is it easy to move from one (22:16) to the other or was it a difficult evolution for the people involved? (22:21) Not difficult, but it is an evolution and you move from, I will now explain it a bit (22:26) in extremes. 

(22:27) It's never like that black and white, but you move from somebody that's very good in (22:30) Excel management and data manipulation to somebody that has a business knowledge that (22:35) knows how things are connected. (22:37) So you need to understand the process. (22:39) So you need to really educate people and they have to like data. 

(22:43) Some people enjoy a lot more the data crunching and doing analysis and finding the outcome (22:49) than people that say, yeah, I don't want to be a detailed, an expert in the manipulation (22:53) of data, but I want to understand the data and see how it can be adjusted. (22:58) So it's different skill set, but also I think what people like and enjoy to see where they (23:04) fit best. (23:06) Do they also need influencing skills and getting things done or that's less of a requirement? (23:12) No, it's a good add on. 

(23:13) I think it's, if you are a planner to achieve things, to achieve results, you need more than (23:19) just the truth or let's say the analysis and the outcome, you need to be able to influence (23:24) people with the right arguments. (23:25) And again, that is for me, part of the planner role, which I think my definition is a lot (23:30) broader than the analyst role. (23:32) And I don't know if I now have, this is a very personal definition that are probably (23:37) standard for that. 

(23:38) That's how I, at least in my team, look at it, that I want my planners to be really outcome (23:46) oriented. (23:46) I'm just driving as an OP process because I have to, I have to have the meeting, okay. (23:52) The people, somebody overruled me and that's that. 

(23:54) I have this different thing. (23:55) They need to say, no, no, we owned it. (23:57) We had a discussion. 

(23:57) This is the best for the company and I'm fully behind it. (24:00) Or at least I think this is the best we could get. (24:02) That's my vision on it. 

(24:04) That goes into the direction of leadership, the next step after purely influencing skills. (24:09) Is that also something you expect from those people and are you coaching and training them (24:13) in that or is it something you see as your responsibility? (24:17) How do you go about that? (24:19) I'm not expecting everything in one person. (24:21) It's also a matter of evolution. 

(24:23) I have my role to play as well, of course, but if you look at, let's say, the full organizational (24:30) development, which is also part of this strategy, again, making the connection to the strategy (24:35) we built, that was also organizational part of that. (24:38) How should we connect the dots? (24:40) Who should play which role? (24:41) It's maturity of the company, maturity of the organization, maturity of the processes (24:47) and connected to that, maturity of the systems, so the IT systems. (24:51) All of these things, again, need to be put in the right shape. 

(24:56) And what I think is very difficult today, where I'm now after two years, is that we (25:01) made huge progress in certain areas, but we also, in some areas, didn't make the progress (25:06) we should. (25:08) So now we need to have all these components, again, at the right level to say, and now (25:11) we can take a step up. (25:13) And the components being process systems and people, yeah. 

(25:17) Yeah, exactly, exactly. (25:18) And I think to give the example of demand planning, yes, we have now a tool that can (25:22) support us in the process. (25:25) We have the frequent meetings and so on. 

(25:27) The people are now getting more used to it. (25:30) Now we can make the step towards how are we now better using it or how can we now have (25:35) a better quality forecast because we are discussing the right things. (25:39) And it's step by step that you need to go through it. 

(25:42) And it takes time, maturing your organization, maturing your processes. (25:46) That takes time. (25:47) It's not something that, and when you put it on a slide as a consultant that you say (25:51) three months and then you are in the next step. 

(25:53) No, there are in those three months, a lot of other things that happen. (25:57) You have the individual growth of people. (25:59) You have also your priorities that come in and maybe then there is a calmer period. 

(26:04) So it's really difficult to plan that maturity. (26:09) And you also mentioned within RENAS, there is this appetite to try things, to take action. (26:14) Do you now consider it in a different manner? (26:16) It's again a nuanced answer because the reason why this whole AI forecasting was so (26:23) easy to implement is because there was nothing existing. 

(26:26) It's new. (26:28) When you enter the field of there is already a legacy solution, I want to change that because (26:32) I think it could be done better. (26:34) Then you enter this discussion way of why is our existing tool not good enough? (26:40) Can we not upgrade that? (26:41) And there I had the whole journey where I detailed scheduling and planning, which is (26:46) another step we need to make. 

(26:48) We have an existing solution for that. (26:50) I try to see what do we need for the future. (26:53) We did the whole year of, I would say, benchmarking, visiting other companies, trying to understand (26:59) what is the best solution for us. 

(27:02) But there the convincing part and the trying out things was and is a lot harder. (27:07) We are making the right steps. (27:09) I'm also convinced of that, but it takes more time. 

(27:12) Which department specifically do you have those discussions? (27:15) And have you found any specific arguments or specific things that they focus on that (27:19) others can learn from? (27:21) Should they want to improve their current system or current process? (27:24) I think it's a typical discussion. (27:26) On the one hand, you have, of course, the technology people because it is ICT. (27:31) What is the best solution? (27:32) But I think the main discussion we had, and that is also with businesses, can you imagine (27:37) a world where you have more functionality because we are using that existing legacy (27:42) system already a long time and people are used to that? (27:45) Can you imagine a world where you have this option and that option? (27:49) Can you imagine what we will do with that and how it will improve our process? (27:53) So there is also this business case component of what are we actually trying to achieve? (27:58) It started with that. 

(27:59) The discussion started, I think we should reduce lead times, but then we need to have (28:04) a better way of planning because now our lead time is composed out of this and this (28:08) component. (28:08) So there is this whole pre-study phase where you say, if we want to improve things, how (28:14) can we achieve that? (28:16) And what do we need as enablers? (28:18) And then the IT or the tooling side comes into play. (28:21) But then you need to look at, OK, can we have that functionality in our legacy system or (28:26) not? (28:26) If we go to an external solution, what can that solution bring? (28:31) And I don't know if it's specific for our company.