(0:03) Welcome to the Supply Chain Planning Podcast, where we speak to supply chain professionals (0:07) about their experience in planning. (0:09) I'm Ben, co-founder of Horizon, and Wim is our co-host. (0:13) Hi everyone, I'm Wim, I'm Managing Director of Lanark. 

(0:16) Today we have the pleasure to talk to Maurice Shneor, who's been in planning for quite (0:20) a while. (0:21) He has worked at companies like Bridgestone, GSK, Maxeda, and currently at Sauermann Group. (0:28) Welcome Maurice. 

(0:28) Hello. (0:30) I just gave a brief introduction about you, which companies you've worked for, but it's (0:34) always nice to hear from you, the transition and the career that you've had, and which (0:38) kind of roles you've held in those companies. (0:40) Okay, no problem. 

(0:41) So indeed, I had quite some experience in supply chain planning. (0:45) I have an economical background at the university. (0:48) This is where I discovered the supply chain, and especially through one professor, make (0:53) me liked and willing to discover this world. 

(0:55) Yeah, as you said, I have several experiences in different, usually multinational companies. (1:00) I started at Bridgestone, but I was not in planning at the beginning. (1:04) I worked first for warehouse and transport network optimization projects. 

(1:08) And after especially a project in France, I came back to Belgium and then I started (1:12) my career, I would say, in supply planning, demand and supply planning, I would say. (1:17) Because at that time it was both demand and supply all together. (1:21) So then after I moved to other companies, also with their complexities, and especially (1:26) at GSK, where in the pharmaceutical business, I would say due to the inherent complexity (1:31) of the product and the business, supply chain planning, demand planning are very crucial (1:36) to help, I would say, balance costs and profits. 

(1:41) Did you also do the amount of supply planning at GSK? (1:44) No, no. (1:44) At GSK, it was much more supply oriented. (1:47) So supply planning oriented. 

(1:49) In that organization, it was split. (1:52) There are pros and cons about that. (1:54) Personally, I prefer to have both together. 

(1:57) Why is that? (1:58) For me, it's a bit more interesting to really have really the end to end and we are really (2:02) talking about end to end planning, having the view of the full supply chain flow of (2:06) the product. (2:07) So managing demand and supply allows you to have this visibility. (2:12) For me, we are really in a function where we need to break silos. 

(2:15) And having two people managing on one side, demand and on the other side, supply, doesn't (2:22) sometimes help a lot or can really create silos because it's all about connection, communication (2:30) and really alignment. (2:33) Now I'm more on a SNOP function. (2:36) So it's a bit different. 

(2:37) I would say I'm more on strategic to tactical part of the supply chain. (2:42) Of course, I had to work with the demand side and supply side, but I'm not doing myself (2:48) the demand and supply planning activities. (2:51) I'm much more here now at Sowerman to try to align both sides, make them work together, (2:58) highlight potential bottlenecks, potential issues, and try to challenge both sides to (3:03) achieve the company objectives. 

(3:05) When you say both sides, do you mean the demand and the supply side or do you mean sales and (3:12) supply chain? (3:12) Indeed. (3:13) So at Sowerman, the sales guys are doing the demand planning, the forecasting. (3:19) We are, I would say, in a rather small company. 

(3:22) So in a small company, it's not like in a big one, we sometimes cannot afford to have, (3:27) I would say, sales guys and then demand planners, like a big organization. (3:32) The commercial guys are doing the demand planning activities. (3:35) And how is that working with sales, generating a demand forecast directly and not having (3:40) a demand planner or a forecast function? (3:43) It's more difficult. 

(3:44) Yeah, it's more difficult because the understanding of what is demand, what is a sale, what's (3:51) invoice, what is an order, all that kind of different terminologies, which behind that (3:57) you have different things, are not easy for commercial people to understand. (4:01) Secondly, of course, their first objective is to sell. (4:04) Doing forecasting is not sometimes their priority. 

(4:09) They don't really like to commit on numbers. (4:11) So yet it's really a challenge. (4:14) So maybe as an overall recap, you started at Bridgestone, not in planning, but then (4:18) you went into planning both demand and supply. 

(4:21) Then you went on to GSK, which was a focus on supply side. (4:26) And then after that, you actually moved to Maxeda, where you did demand planning. (4:30) And then now at Sowerman, you do S&OP. 

(4:33) At Maxeda, they're in demand planning. (4:36) How did that differ from the demand planning you see now at Sowerman? (4:41) Oh, it's really different. (4:42) At Maxeda, we were really demand planning. 

(4:45) So we were really on demand planners, not related directly or not reporting directly (4:50) to commercial guys, to commercial departments. (4:53) We also were in the middle of implementing a forecasting software to support the generation (4:59) of the forecast. (5:00) It was for me a bit new because I used to work in the retail environment, but I would say (5:05) that the forecast is more turned towards suppliers. 

(5:10) So really the forecast is seen as an added value to manage the supplier relationship (5:15) and to provide them more visibility on our demand. (5:19) And that was forecast over the total network of Maxeda, that was not by store? (5:24) It was over the total network, by item, by store. (5:27) Ah, by store as well. 

(5:28) Yes, yes, yes, yes. (5:30) And did you join Sowerman in the S&OP role for an S&OP process that was already existing? (5:37) Or did you get hired to actually start it from scratch? (5:41) There was already a start. (5:42) So there was already something implemented. 

(5:44) But I would say that we are, if you look at the maturity level, we are really at the low (5:49) level of the maturity of S&OP, which is very good because it's quite challenging, I would (5:54) say, at least for me personally. (5:56) We have a lot to do and especially educate the collaborators, the people working within (6:02) the S&OP process about the added value of this process and how it will make a difference (6:08) in our business, in our development. (6:11) Are you able to lean on previous experiences? (6:14) I would guess at Bridgestone probably because there you were also involved on both sides. 

(6:19) Do you have any best practices from there that you can try at Sowerman or is it such a different (6:25) type of business and different size of business that it's not really transferable? (6:30) No, I think it's transferable. (6:32) Even though maybe the product are different, the complexity is different, the network is (6:36) different, the customers are different, there are always some bases that you can transfer (6:41) to manage demand and supply activities. (6:44) In terms of order of creating or setting up new processes, you say that at Sowerman, the (6:51) demand planning, it's now with sales and it's not optimized yet, so to speak. 

(6:55) You're also working on S&OP. (6:58) What is given priority or what do you think usually should be the order for a company (7:04) to work on these different processes? (7:06) Because in a previous episode, we actually, with Jochen, he said, you should start with (7:10) S&OP and not necessarily just with demand planning. (7:13) What's your view on that one? (7:15) For me, I see S&OP and demand planning as two different things. 

(7:22) They are, of course, closely related, but it's two different processes. (7:27) It's true that you can have demand planning without S&OP, maybe you cannot have S&OP without (7:31) demand planning. (7:33) I like the quote, you can have demand planning without S&OP, but you can't have S&OP without (7:37) demand planning. 

(7:38) That's a very clear one. (7:40) Building further, perhaps on that, if you look at the, you talked about maturity of (7:44) the process at Sowerman, would you call it already S&OP or is it still more S&OE? (7:50) So what's the horizon you're currently at and how do you see that growing as part of (7:55) the maturity? (7:56) Yeah, that's a good comment. (7:58) It's true that due to maybe our low level of maturity, we sometimes may be more an S&OE (8:05) than S&OP. 

(8:06) Of course, that's something we need to work on, is really get a longer horizon of visibility. (8:13) Usually what we have improved a lot is that now within the S&OP process, we take decisions, (8:20) management takes decisions which are beneficial for the company, which make impact. (8:25) But sometimes, yeah, I have the feeling that we are maybe too much on the mid-short term (8:30) and not enough on the long term. 

(8:32) Do you have any experience with specific other types of data that you have used beyond just (8:38) historical data to generate the baseline? (8:41) When I was at Maxeda, for example, yeah, we tried to also generate forecast, not only through (8:47) historical data, but baseline also, as I said, by trying to incorporate the different events. (8:54) I would first, as a basis, maybe first try to capture the promotion, the marketing campaign. (8:59) I don't think you need to see big. 

(9:02) You need to, as I said, do trial and error and start with quick wins by trying first maybe (9:07) to incorporate in your numbers the promotions. (9:10) It should not be so much difficult to capture if you manage to work with sales and marketing. (9:15) It's also important that demand planners, they do not stay at the office and they also, (9:21) it's always interesting for them, for example, to be, if they are working on the retail, (9:25) for example, business, that they are on the ground, that they discuss with the people, (9:29) the vendors, the sellers, which are working at the stores. 

(9:33) Maybe they can also go with the business development people to visit the customers. (9:38) This is how really they will understand the business. (9:40) Not staying behind the laptop, the screen and computing your numbers. 

(9:45) I fully agree. (9:46) I had that experience when I was in planning the concept of a store check. (9:50) I remember when we had the demand review meeting at the core meeting of the S&OP. 

(9:54) My managers used to wake up very early and go to the Carrefour and the Colorado and the (10:00) Les, a couple of big stores to go and check. (10:03) And then he came to the demand review and it was amazing to see how he could just discuss (10:07) and pop the balloon of all of the bright ideas and wishful thinking that sales had. (10:13) I said, no, your displays are not selling out or you lost space or shelf in that store. 

(10:19) It was amazing to see. (10:19) So it's been for me also something I picked up from him later on. (10:23) No, no, no. 

(10:24) Surely. (10:25) Each time I was able to really go with salespeople and visit the customers or go at the stores (10:31) and discuss with the manager of the store or with the people working there, it always (10:35) brought me added value for my job after, surely. (10:38) The things that you're mentioning, promotions, store checks, they are very basic things and (10:45) things that have been around 10, 15, 20 years, probably for anybody who's done demand planning (10:50) for a long time. 

(10:51) Indeed. (10:51) Well, now people using AI tools are saying, oh, but you need to look at the weather at (10:58) the stock markets or the price or this or that good. (11:01) You're not referring to that. 

(11:03) Is that because you don't think that has added value or you just don't come across that situation? (11:09) No. (11:10) For example, at Maxeda, I was working for a product portfolio that was heavily impacted (11:15) by the weather, for example. (11:17) And we tried as well in our forecasting to include the weather forecast. 

(11:22) For me, you need first to understand what are the main drivers that will impact your business. (11:29) If it's the weather, then maybe you have to look at the weather. (11:32) If it's the stock market, then maybe you have to look at the stock market, depending on really (11:36) the business you are working on. 

(11:39) We talked a lot now about the S&OP process and about systems, but of course, S&OP is also (11:44) a people thing, a people activity. (11:47) Can you share your view? (11:49) What are the core skills that somebody working in planning needs to have? (11:53) I would like to talk about two mains. (11:55) First is let's be curious, curious about people, curious about events, about things, curious (12:03) to learn and to meet people because planning, as you say, it's also a people matter. 

(12:09) And talking with people allows you to also understand much more your business, allows (12:16) you to make connections and to capture the information whenever you need it. (12:20) So be curious really to learn all over your professional journey. (12:24) That's the first one. 

(12:26) And the second one, which I personally like a lot is that they are to make mistakes. (12:30) Mistakes is good. (12:32) And what I see now from the young people is, but I think maybe I was the same at that age. 

(12:37) I don't remember. (12:39) They don't really dare to make mistakes. (12:42) And I think this is by doing mistakes that we learn. 

(12:44) By doing mistakes, we improve ourselves. (12:47) We improve the process. (12:49) We improve the planning activity and we move forward. 

(12:52) Two interesting ones also, because in my opinion, they are both quite inherent to a person. (12:57) I think you can change to some extent, but yeah, some people will be more or less risk (13:02) averse and some people are standard, more or less curious. (13:06) It's not something like analytical skills or something to which of course you also have (13:10) some talent or not, but it's more of a mindset that you kind of need to develop. 

(13:16) It's really develop your mindset to be ready to make mistakes and to learn from them. (13:22) Of course, you can also quote analytical mindset, helicopter view, there are skills that are (13:28) needed for planning, but I wanted to emphasize on those two. (13:32) I'm still stuck at that curious thing. 

(13:35) You really got me thinking. (13:36) They have to take mistakes fully with that. (13:38) And I can also imagine how can I interview a person and try to find examples where they (13:43) make mistakes and how they handle that. 

(13:45) That's obvious, but I'm still thinking, how do you check in an interview if somebody is (13:50) curious or not? (13:52) I don't think we need to look at it when we interview someone. (13:55) I was more thinking about when you are on the job, if you want to do your job correctly, (14:00) you want to be excellent, or if you want to improve yourself, is that really be curious. (14:05) As I said, don't be stuck behind your screen, but there to create a network. 

(14:12) Also, of course, be curious about what is happening around you and what is, I would (14:18) say, influencing your business and your job. (14:21) I get your point. (14:22) Once the person is hired, you can push them in a certain direction, push them away from (14:27) their desk. 

(14:29) I'm still wondering, can you check it when they join? (14:32) That's why I was mentioning that it's not something maybe you need to look at during (14:36) an interview. (14:36) When you discuss with someone, you can also sometimes feel, not necessarily measure it, (14:42) but you can feel if they are more or less curious, if they are eager to learn. (14:47) Is it then also something that you try to measure for them, like a KPI or something? (14:52) Because it's vague, so... (14:54) No. 

(14:55) No, no, no. (14:55) What I tried to do, especially when I was at GSK, for example, I was managing a team (15:00) of three people. (15:01) What we tried to do for the development is change the product portfolio. 

(15:06) We were all doing the same activities, but for a specific product portfolio. (15:10) The idea here is that, for example, every year or every two years, depending on what (15:16) you want, I think it was at that time every year, we try to change. (15:19) So we swap. 

(15:21) I was responsible for the product A, the other person was responsible for the product B, (15:26) then we swap. (15:27) Then I become responsible for the product B and he becomes responsible for the product (15:31) A. (15:32) But there you need to balance the loss of expertise with the development of the people, (15:36) eh? (15:37) Yes, indeed. (15:38) But of course, we also try to back up ourselves. 

(15:42) I'm also curious from your personal perspective, because you mentioned that you need to dare (15:47) to make mistakes. (15:48) Which kind of mistakes have you made, maybe repeatedly or some important ones that other (15:53) people can avoid if they start their journey or if they develop into more mature roles? (15:58) It almost sounds like we're interviewing Maurice for a job. (16:05) What kind of mistakes? (16:07) Of course, I could have made mistakes on the numbers I have reported. 

(16:10) Of course, it's human to make mistakes at that level. (16:13) I would like more maybe to emphasize on mistakes related to approaching people. (16:19) We need to manage the change. 

(16:21) We need to break silos. (16:23) So we need to break or to change the as-is situation, especially when we implement new (16:28) tools or new processes. (16:30) I would say that rather than things related to the analytical side. 

(16:35) And what was wrong in your approach looking back or what could you recommend to other (16:39) people? (16:39) I think maybe I was maybe too straightforward, too direct. (16:43) You need to also look at the rhythm of the other people in their journey toward the change. (16:50) So that's for me the main one of the lessons I have learned from my experience. 

(16:54) Sometimes not going too fast, but really take the time to discuss with people and to make (16:59) them understood why we are changing and what kind of benefits and added value that we get (17:05) from this. (17:05) To wrap up the conversation, we always ask the guests if there are any recommendations (17:12) that he or she wants to share with the audience, specifically about where do you pick up certain (17:17) skills or which channels do you follow to learn more about demand planning or about (17:22) self-development in general? (17:24) I'm following quite a lot of people on LinkedIn. (17:26) And I think it's quite easy to find the people. 

(17:29) I like Bram de Smet or Nicolas Vandeput are also very good people to follow. (17:35) Laura Cecere as well gives very good insight about supply chain activities or supply chain (17:40) matters. (17:42) If people have any questions for you about your roles or different companies, can they (17:46) reach out to you perhaps via LinkedIn? (17:48) Of course. 

(17:49) Always. (17:50) OK. (17:51) Perfect. 

(17:51) We'll link it in the podcast description. (17:54) Thanks a lot, Maurice, for all of the insights and for sharing your experience. (17:57) Thanks. 

(17:57) It was a new exercise for me. (17:59) I hope I get the job. (18:03) Thanks a lot and have a good day. 

(18:05) Thank you. (18:06) Bye. (18:06) Thank you. 

(18:07) Bye bye. (18:07) Bye.